And a lot of us who thought F3 was complete and utter fail thought it was great. Your move, troll.

I wish you gave us details, where are you? How far are you in the main quest? Who is your daddy, and what does he do? Do you play RPG's or FPS's?

How can you say someone is a troll just because he has a different opinion from you?? you're obviously a complete idiot. If you thought fallout 3 was a fail you wont be buying fallout 4 then??

You guys are blinded by the nostalgia! bethesda has made fallout a better game! The people that moan about bethesda....simple...dont buy anymore bethesda games! you wont be missed!

The quoted statement is ridiculous. Bethesda made a 'good' game with its strength lying in exploration, but it isn't better than the originals or New Vegas. RPGs are typically judged by their story and dialogue quality, and Fallout 3 failed miserably on that front.

Because he's using personal insults. I don't go around calling people idiots because their opinions are different than mine. He is.

Edit: You know what? We need to get some [censored] civility in this discussion, it's pissing me off.

You guys are blinded by the nostalgia! bethesda has made fallout a better game! The people that moan about bethesda....simple...dont buy anymore bethesda games! you wont be missed!

no....you just go around calling them trolls. anyway, will you still be buying fallout games even tho you think bethesda fail when it comes to fallout games?

That's not really the point, I don't want Fallout 3 to exist because it [censored] the canon up, Fallout 3 a good game, but it's a [censored] Fallout game.

this doesn't really make sense. bethesda own fallout, a fallout game is whatever they decide. they made a game called fallout 3, which is a great game. Put those two together and hey! you have a great fallout game

main quest was crap.

No it really doesn't, it just makes what Bethesda says technically correct. It doesn't make either it make sense or be well written which Fallout 3 wasn't. If you went around exploring it was good, the main quest was crap.

this doesn't really make sense. bethesda own fallout, a fallout game is whatever they decide. they made a game called fallout 3, which is a great game. Put those two together and hey! you have a great fallout game

personally i found the story in NV very dull. for me fallout 3 is the way the game should look and feel. Fallout fans should be praising bethesda. fallout 3 is as much of a fallout game as the rest of them.

The only thing which ever bothered me about this game was what it did to the canon, I got into Fallout via Fallout 3 but before it came out I bought Fallout 2 and really got ingrossed in the world through all the articles on the Vault. When I saw that screenshot of the Vertibird landing outside Arlington Library I was quite pleased that the Enclave were coming back (I was 14 and optemistic after Oblivion leave me alone ) I thought it would be like Oblivion with maybe a faction system, which had been present in Fallout 2 after all and maybe we'd get to see more about the Enclave, in 3D no-less. Now being a newbie to the whole thing, the change from Isometric didn't bother me (it was '08 right?) I could go from playing Halo 3 to Theme Hospital, and I'm not an RPG buff with the all stats and such, personally I just like RPing, if I ever found myself becoming too powerful too quickly I self-nerfed and all that stuff in Vault 101 could be forgotten anyway, Capitol Wasteland isn't that big I could make it to where-ever I wanted to start still at level 2 and just lose everything I aquired and bump the difficulty back up, the CW was big and fun, with plenty of exploration and things to do, even if the settlements were a little small and crap.

But what it did to world was just too much for me to consider this a good Fallout game, on it's own merits it's good and fun, as Fallout...

The Vaults were social experiments, there was no reason for the Super Mutants to be there at all, the Vault were about seeing how people reacted to only having 40W lightbulbs and living in a multi-cultural pressure cooker environment, not about continuing FEV research (by a private corporation no less!) and making [censored] clones. Why would FEV be researched there? It was taken from West-Tek (more West-Tek references in DLC please) by the government to be continued for purely military applications in the Mariposa Military Base, what purpose did trying a different strain of virus on people have and if the place was just about making Super Mutants why did it have a GECK in that ridiculous chamber (jokes on you Beth, there's a spot in the corner of your fancy chamber with NO rads), now I do believe that Vault 108 has something somewhere about it's experiment but why the clones? Now, if there were a purely un-opened Vault in a game and you were the first contact with, what would essentially be, a timecapsule of the American people, it would be really complicated with some many emotions and questions which may not be possible in a game, fair enough, but why do all Vaults now have to be horror shows? Even New Vegas is guilty before anyone starts, Vault 22, I know that these "Food-Synthisisers" have been mentioned but so have basic hydroponics, if Vault 22 was all about growing plants what did all the other Vaults do? In short Super Mutants were just shoe-horned in and really dumbed down to just canon-fodder (until Bull [censored] Broken Steel of course).

The Brotherhood? I don't really find it implausable if I'm honest that they are there, the Pentagon, the Whitehouse, so many military secrets are in DC, there could be maps and codes to all sorts of hidden caches across America so I don't really object to their presence. The fact that there white-knights of honour and virtue? Again I don't really see a problem, the little bit where the Paladins talk "knightly like Elder Lyons" is a tad painful but whatever, after seeing the Pitt and after the Scourge, maybe some of the BoS did feel like the elitists (not used in any kind of derogetory sense) that they are. There numbers I find questionable but that holds true of all Fallouts really, weren't they the survivors of the Maripose military garrison? I know they had their families too but just how many could there possibly be? They don't recruit from the outside much so how many are there? I admit that my knowledge of how mant soldiers would typically be stationed at such a place isn't based on anything but I just don't see how they're can be anymore than the pre-2242 Enclave, then again if you cut out F3, Tactics and such I don't have any problems with their numbers. Maybe I'm just biased or less riled up about the BoS because really, my only concern and area of real expertise (if I may say so) on Fallout canon (though I do hold a good general knowledge) is about the Enclave and their pre and post war dealings...

Which of course leads me to the Enclave and how they shouldn't have been there, now I have discussed many times with some of the other Enclave supporters on here such as Lt. Andronicus about how the Enclave chain of command works and how Eden could be President but I'm still skeptical.

Eden's Presidency

As I often mention, one of the non-canon endings for the NCR was that it became a facsist state and that the Enclave survivors were found a new home in their ranks, now whilst that is non-canon the variable is the NCR, not the Enclave. If the NCR had become this state then the Enclave would have collapsed into it, as it didn't the Enclave held together probably out of a need to survive until, in what I'm sure would have been there final ending in a Fallout 3-less world, the NCR attacks Navarro and whatever trace of the Enclave as an organisation is eliminated. Of course, now we are blissfully aware that a ZAX Super Computer became self-aware and became a member of the US Cabinet so after the destruction of the Oil Rig it is assumed that Eden was the most senoir surviving link in the chain and became Acting President of the United States (the concept I base my on character in the RPs' on). Now I'm English, I have very little knowledge outside of wikipedia how the US Government works and whilst the Enclave did streamline and remove (maybe just temporarily, we are taking about centuries of history) the US Government to fit their new vastly reduced scale could something like Eden become President? He is niether a citizen or an advlt over the age of 35.

Presentation

The Enclave in Fallout 3 is a purely military organisation, now whilst in Fallout 2 everyone got rudimentary military training they were still civilians. Pale people milling around machines and in recreation rooms clad in numberless jumpsuits (and they were tagged as Enclave Citizen so they aren't just soldiers off duty), some even with ball-gags and blow-up dolls in their inventory, where did they all go? In 30 years there aparently legions of young soldiers to die but where are the civies? Now maybe Raven Rock is too small & crap and it is definately clear that it was bigger than we saw but why? Vault like apartments, families, civilians, children, all must have been in Raven Rock somewhere and it would have done something to elevate Fallout 3's lack-luster, often money based, moral system. I remember somebody saying that it would be boring to see such places, this was a while ago and maybe on NMA but even still, [censored] that guy. The Enclave aren't just a military organisation, they were democratic in Fallout 2 even if laws on the max number of terms in office didn't exist. Eden was President for 30 years, nobody saw him, there were no elections and nobody knew he was a machine? Now I think it was Lt. Andronicus again who said that maybe they had fake elections and such with Eden simply swapping persona, but to this I say:


?Did nobody quetion that there was apparently one person on the opposite coast who became President and ordered them all there? If someone is thinking maybe they just went and Autumn Senior didn't mention Eden, then what was the justification? If he was legitimate then why did they feel the need to lie?

?Why would Autumn go along with a persona swap, as he says "The chain-of-command must be followed", why would Autumn go along with the deception of the Enclave, why would he betray all those people? If Eden did something like this surely it would warrent his dismissal and probabe deletion, Autumn has the code, they could just move.


Tactics

Why did what is often said to be the most advanced faction in terms of technology (except we now have the Blade Runner rip-off) and what is most definately the US Army, consider just flinging troopers at Liberty Prime's feet and sending Vertibirds to hover in front of it's face to be an effective stratergy? The Vertibirds are shown doing missile strikes and carpet bombs and of course, walking prototype robots are known for their structural stability, shoot the back of the [censored] things legs with missiles like when the crane hoisted into the air and over the Pentagon (comically in about 5 seconds flat too). On the topic of "Take it back" the Enclave have artilery shooting at the bridge, why don't they just shoot the Pentagon it's right there next to bridge, shell your opponents base! They obviously took the BoS as a threat by then as they had rolled out all the force-field barriers, cannon-fodder checkpoints and invisible artilery to stop them. The fact that they didn't just use Bradely-Hercules to bomb them back to the stone-age could be explained by them not having it lines up or lost connection so I will let that one off. But the checkpoints why, little barricades of troopers, what where they supposed to be, surely the men their would require supplies and replacing overy day as there are neither beds and food/water at any camp outside of the First Aid Box at Rock Breakers Last Gas, about 5 actual "camps" in actual strategic locations would have been good and made a lot more [censored] sense for one thing.

Numbers

See the non-canon ending again, this means that the Enclave lacked the numbers to survive as an organisation and probably as a civilisation and, hell depending on how puritanical you are about such things, even as a species. Now they all get called to Raven Rock and in 30 years there are actually droves of young, serving age men and women ready to be cannon-fodder for Liberty Prime; there are only two people in the game who are probably in their +50s, Autumn and a scripted Enclave Officer who emerges from that first Vertibird you see when your down in the intake pipe (before hope is crushed). The Enclave can field so much it's ridiculous, where do all the Vertibirds come from, it is never actually specified I don't believe that the ones even in Fallout 2 were of post-war construction and now they have been revieled to be prototypes so what gives. The blueprints were only at Navarro for maintianence purposes on existing birds, yet by Fallout 3 they have so many it's ridiculous (I put there new appearance soley down to artistic change). Broken Steel kicks them when their down again, but what pisses me off more than anything is another one of those non-canon specific, the Enclave are not the vairiable things, Lyons says after returning from AAFB and inquiring further about the Enclave that he "wouldn't be suprised if they returned again" and that the camps could take months to learn of AAFB's destruction. Wtf. Do radio communications not exist like, do the never eating, sleeping troopers in the wastes never question the fact that nobody is telling them what to do, or bringing them ammo and supplies, seriously, months!?! After all that they didn't even have the [censored] courtesy of leaving them alone, they'll return someday, yeah I bet they [censored] will. Not to mention the fact that not only the whole DC bull-[censored] but apparently they also retained a garrison at Navarro (because ED-E was sent their from AAFB, shortly before the deployment of Hellfire Armour so that the scientists there could continue his work), the loss of which I hypothesise was classified for moral much like early power armour, and now they have a Chicago outpost which was mentioned in ED-E's logs.