While I've seen many threads on factions on the first page and one about the four main choices I'd like to know which faction you believe the Mojave needs: The Legion or the NCR.

I'm Pro-Legion in this regard. I think it's a decision of living a tough life with the Legion or not living at all. It actually took me a playthrough to support the Legion. At first I was Anti-Legion (just ask Caesar's limbless body) but I began to see them as ruthless protectors. Now, Obsidian did kind of put them in half-assedly and they're probably not the most fun faction to play as, so this is more about who you believe would do better as leaders of New Vegas in teh realz lyfe.

And I apologise if this thread has actually been done and I haven't seen it, I just find it a very interesting topic.

My personal Enclave bias aside Arcade was a Follower and they didn't even give him a trial they just imprisoned him indefinitely and didn't even thank him for bringing the Remnants to aid in the battle for Hoover Dam.

There was no mention of a trial just imprisoned indefinitely

I do believe that being arrested/imprisonment comes before a trail. Second just because he's a follower now does not mean that makes up for the past.

This would be so much easier if I coud make real world comparisons but rules are rules.

But he didn't do anything in the past they judged him because he came from the Enclave even though he had been raised in the Followers for most of his life.

I honestly have a feeling the NCR just does a trial for trials sake, I mean, I feel they expect to vote the person guilty. Arcade is an example of this. When he was an 'Enclave Citizen' he was like what, 2 or something? So it isn't like he did or believed in the Enclave. Plus, Arcade is a member of the Followers, they are the antithesis of what the Enclave were in functionality. Like I said, I just think the NCR pre-deternine the verdict and hold trials for the appearance of democracies.

How is NCR to Know that without a trial? They can't just take his word for it. Second this is going off topic. NCR is the right to hunt down the Enclave. At least they arrest them. Legion justice is two things. Enslavement or Death. How they deal with Enclave and one man is a moot point next to how Legion deal with thousands of people in the same brutal way.

Go Fiends!

Okay, after this thread. NO ONE make a Debate #7. I'm serious, there is nothing to discuss now, why in the hell would there be in #7? Hell this thread was unneccassary.

chainsaw all the way c:

Holy [censored], debate 6? Didn't the 5th one start like two hours ago??

The female citizens, baby mommas and teachers must be treated all right though right?
There is civilization beyond legionnaire and slave since they have traders and their own currency so citizens must exist, both male and female.
And baby mommas, well, it isn't exactly a good thing for the baby to force a pregnant woman to work their ass off nor do I think that it's a good thing for the baby if the baby momma is chained up at a bed either.
So I think that their breeders are treated all right, if not, the babies might come out.... Faulty.
And teachers must be the women who teach the children about stuff before they are fit to start training to become legionnaires. (IIRC some women are teachers.)
Now this is just speculation but still, I doubt "every" women is treated like dirt in Legion Land.

I remember 4 slaves, the Weathers family which is going through process and are currently "captures" which means their final destination and treatment when the get there is unknown.
Then we have two slave woman carrying a crapload of stuff on their backs, these women are treated badly, but who knows? Maybe they are doing it because they've refused to work and tried to run away. (This is pure speculation but I hope that within the Legion community the slave class system works like this: If you're good, you will get better treatment and might eventually become a citizen, if you're bad and work like crap then your treatment will get worse and you'll end up like these two slave girls. Why I hope it is like this is because then the slaves has no one to blame but themselves for getting such horrible treatment, while good little dogs will get far better treatment.)
Then we have a little girl, I haven't talked to her so I don't know what there is to her.
Then there's Siri, and she seems to be treated all right, she makes them healing powders and she don't look like she's in pain or anything. (Physically that is, mentally? I dunno, haven't talked to her for a while so can't tell whether her voice is full of despair or not.)

Still, the only four slaves I've seen are the four at The Fort and the captures at Cottonwood Cove.
Might be some more slaves at The Arena, but that was quite a long time ago since I fought there and their only purpose is to die by the players hands anyway.

Point is, in the game we have 1 citizen, 3 captures, 2 prisoners, 4 slaves and a crapload of legionnaires.
I know I'm rehashing the same thing but, how are we suppose to debate Legion when it's this biased?
Look at how many citizens of New Vegas and NCR there is, Legion is... Incredibly difficult to defend unless one allows speculation.

I don't like slavery, I find it to be horrible.
But this is the post apocalyptic wasteland and look how places are without order, one example is a place we had a whole game to, Capital Wasteland.
Look at how that place fared without any government or nation to uphold law and order.
It fell apart.

Now, what if NCR fell apart?
What would happen?
Well, different groups would seize the opportunity to strike less protected towns in order to take their stuff.
And what are those groups called?
Raiders.

If NCR falls then a lot of settlements, towns, cities, communities, villages and tribes will be without protection and raiders will seize the lands once again.
The connection that the lands had with each other will fade away as everyone tries to isolate themselves again.
Production will not come to a halt but it will slow down immensely.

So.
Why do I believe in Legion?
Cause they bring order.
They bring order to it's lands through brutality.
And guess what?
It works.
And here's the next thing, if Caesar dies then Lanius takes over.
It Lanius dies then Lucius will take over.
If Lucius dies then I'm sure Vulpes Inculta would take over.
No matter how many times you try to kill Legions leader the legate will always become the new Caesar.
The Legion cannot die.
It's way to do things might change depending on it's leader.
But Legion's structure will remain the same and they will continue to conquer until they've engulfed the entire West Coast.

So why do I believe in Legion?
Cause they won't fall.
They will never fall.
And they will bring order through brutality.
It will take many years of blood, pain and tears but in the end it will be better since everyone will be under one nation.
And no one, not a single person would dare to oppose them.
No more raiders.
No more fanatics.
No more corruption.
In Legion I place my trust even if my fate is to become a baby momma.

If some slaves have to suffer for a secure civilization to be restored for future generations then so be it.
So I don't like what they do, I don't approve of their slaves, sixism, torture or crucifixion but I approve of what their long-term goal is.
See, there's a difference.


[EDIT]
To clear a couple of things up.
Legion will never fall: No, I don't believe it will ever fall, the morality might start to go on a downward spiral if 5 Caesars in a row are killed within a couple of years but I don't think that Legion will easily abandon their new religion. I mean, they're willing to "die" for Caesar, no questions asked, just die if it served Caesar, so I doubt they would ever fall, the only faction that "could" kill Legion entirely is NCR if they got their [censored] together (Which I find unlikely) and MWBOS.

And we don't know about Legion's entire culture so who knows, maybe their civilized areas have little to no sixism, torture and crucifixion which strengthens them even more IMO.

Well that's the thing, I don't care about "me".
That's the whole point of why I like Legion.
If I were to be selfish and think of my own comfort then I'd say NCR or House.
But I don't care about me.
I care about the west-coast.
Not just in the present (2281) but the future of it as well.
If I have to become a slave for the world to be a better place in 10, 30, 60, 100 or maybe even 200 years from now then so be it.
So my will?
My wishes?
My goals?
My comfort?
It's all about me, my selfish reasons for wanting to live.
And I'm not important, what is important is the future.

If Legion didn't take the Dam full on I could see an alternate way for them.
They took the south by taking over Nelson and Cottonwood Cove and by killing Searchlight with radiation.
They could easily take the North but sending rafts over the lake during night and take Bitter Springs.
And they have the Khans from the west that supports them as well.
So even if they don't take the dam full on I could see them surrounding NCR from all sides and cornering the Dam and taking it that way.
Quite frankly, it seems like a much better tactic than just charging ahead like they do in the final mission.

Well, I was thinking like, what if there is a class system and reward/punishment system?
Maybe not for Legion but for another slave using society.
A higher class of slave is still a slave but he/she might be treated a lot better and get a way more comfortable assignment.
While a lower class slave is one that has to walk around in the mud carrying tons of equipment and eventually break their back.

So now, if you're a good little dog, and do what your masters tell you to do, and you do a good job, they might take a liking to you and upgrade you in class.
You might get a better assignment or just treated better generally.

While if you're a disobedient little vermin then they will whip you and punch you and forcefully intercourse you and stuff.

With this system you only have yourself to blame if you get treated badly.
Sure you're still a slave and sure slavery is wrong, but if you're a good slave you'll get treated better.

Since we haven't seen a Legion town and only heard "some" of how their slaves are treated generally this is what I would like to see for Legion in a DLC in the future.
We would have slaves that are treated good and those that are treated bad but it's their own fault for being treated bad in the first place.

So, Legion.
Another take on them is this: We live in a civilized world IRL, where as NCR and House represent what is familiar to us.
So lets say.... There is a tribe IRL which is filled with cannibals, they eat their foes flesh as they believe it strengthens them.
Why?
Religion perhaps?
Anyway, that is every day life to them.
Where as "not" eating humans is every day life to us. (Well, for most of us here anyway.)
So think about it.
If you were born into the Legion you wouldn't be "brainwashed", you'd just live in a world that is familiar to you.
It isn't bad.
It's home.
It's who you are, it's what your beliefs are.
Legionnaires that are born into the Legion are not evil at all, they live in world where what they do is perfectly normal.
So again, it's about perspective.
Since we all live in a civilized world IRL it's easier for us to sympathize with those that represent it the most.
But it does not make the Legion bad IMO.
It makes them of a different world.

Yes, they do enslave a lot of people, but we only have 4 slaves to go by which reside in The Fort which is a military camp.
We don't know how they generally treat the majority of slaves in their civilized locations.
So generalizing Legion by the account of a dozen people or less?
It's a bit premature.
On the other hand, we can't justify speculation all the time either.
So on the slave part, Legion shouldn't really be touched, because we know extremely little of how it actually is.

They do kill people, but one needs to look at who they kill.












I can understand why they did kill most of these people, I don't like it, in fact, I think it's horrible anyone has to die really.
But I understand why they had to die.

Citizens.
What do we know?
We know they watch over Primm, we know they peacefully lord over some of the people in The Strip, we know they have a trader in The Fort.
But we don't know "how" the lord over their people, we don't know "how" many got to stay citizens and why they were allowed to be that.
We have no idea of what a civilized Legion is really.

So why do I support Legion even though I know very little of their citizens?
Cause they seem better than NCR.
Until I see that Legion treats their citizens like absolute crap I will still support them.
Cause while we don't have a lot of hard facts about them being treated well we also don't have any hard facts of people being treated badly either. (citizens)
So it might be blind support but opposing the Legion and saying they're wrong is also very blind.
All comes down to speculation about it.