I actually haven't played Dead Money yet because I want to wait till there are at least 2 or 3 DLC's out before I play them. That way I can have several more hours of gameplay all at once. That's what I did with Fallout 3 and it was spectacular, I love Broken Steel =)

Meh.

A government that brutal is going to cause large loss of human life and eventually incite rebellion; furthermore, their reliance on a single figure of power makes them highly unstable. NCR's the best hope for future stability if they get their affairs in order; they have the manpower to protect their territories if the bureaucracy starts working right.

Just look at the historical Roman Empire for an example of what happens when two or more people both feel entitled to leadership of a nation like Caesar's Legion; war, war and more war.

and from the ashes of those wars rose the modern world, I am not saying the legion will be permanent, it will die, then another civilization will build off the foundation laid by the legion, then it will most likely die, but then another civilization will build off its framework that was built on the foundation laid by the legion, so on and so forth. It is necsesarry to put the foundation in place, then die.

My point is that NCR is better suited for establishing a solid foundation for stable growth in the Mojave; the Legion is reliant on a single figure of power to a degree far surpassing that of the Roman example you're citing and any interleadership strife would absolutely tear it apart whilst simultaneously throwing the Mojave into anarchy.

NCR might not be too efficient about prosecuting raiders all of the time (although they did gut the Fiends and Jackals) but they are a far, far more stable government than the Legion will ever be.

Actually, from the ashes of those wars rose 1000 years of darkness and ignorance. Then came the renaissance, but only after the monarchy lost ultimate power.
A culture built on basic human rights doesn't really need to fall 5 times for something worthwhile to come about. It skips those steps.

Well, my opinion on Legion: ...They be lawful evil.
A shade of gray that is really really dark, but still gray. (Even if it's hard to see.)
I do consider House to be pitch black evil though. :laugh:

Get you facts right, only the boarder's suffer "darkness" and ignorance; the Byzantine still standing along and the Renaissance started in Italian Peninsula, where the Roman Empire was.

Human rights is a rather modern product, IIRC there isn't any culture "built" upon it.

In fact, human right doesn't skip anything. if anything, human rights are always being abuse for economics, security, politics etc.

Not at all. I can always try the different outcomes of the quest and pick a different faction to side with during the end game. There is a lot to do in this game if you want to see all the content.

It's just BS...don't even believe it. Show me a civilization that has thrived with slavery, oppression, more for the haves while creating more have-nots and being barbaric by killing the resources of the land with environmental waste, and using crucifixion. The world today is evidence that people want better and will only put up with crap for so long.

I mean, one of the biggest points of the Fallout universe is that humans destroyed their world and now have to remake it. That takes people working together, not factions at odds with each other. How does enslaving people and not using a huge resource, namely the brainpower of half of the population (women) make that happen? It doesn't.

In my 6 games, I've always done the NCR path because even with all their problems and screwed up leadership, the people in the ranks want what's best for the people. Quartermaster Bardon at Hoover Dam says it best. To change things up, in my current game, which I'm thinking is my hardcoe game because I get annoyed with the real hardcoe situations, my character, Pipi, has Intelligence of 1. Just 1 and it'll stay there. This means no Comprehension Perk, no Educated Perk and any other Perk that requires higher INT. It also means way fewer points to spread around when you level up. It makes it hard. I'll never see one of my favorite weapons, the Gobi Campaign Scout Rifle because Lockpick will never get that high. I don't think I'll be able to get Jury Rigging because Repair won't reach 90. So it's a challenge. Some of the dialogue has been pretty funny though.

I can't stand playing evil...death to all slavers. Good luck...you can think of ways to make it a challenge.

I never would have thought that Wasteland politics could be so controversial....lol

Um the Roman empire anyone? That was the most stable empire of its time, people where still living in mud huts in those days. The wasteland isnt the world today, its much like the world of the Roman Empire. Filled with warring and fighting tribes, and you cant build a proper civilisation on that. NCR is too inefficient to destroy or absorb all those tribes, look at the khans and fiends and powder gangers. The fiends are just outside camp mcarren and are still rampant. Its stupid to think EVERYONE beats there slaves and abuses them back in arizona, it varies. Some treat their slaves well and some dont. I personally dont agree with the sixism of the legion but i suppose Ceaser needs to have as high a population as possible to increase the number of recruits. And i bet, if the powder gangers were under legion control, they would have never rebelled, crucifixition is a extremely good and effective way of keeping things docile,

The borders, as you call it, were the previously conquered nations whose native, conscripted armies revolted against Roman rule. These revolts occurred primarily because of taxes and unfair policies from Rome, whose unworkable Imperial model collapsed after a long decline.

The Eastern empire did indeed continue to prosper. After it dismantled the Roman model and returned to it's Hellenistic roots, while rejecting the religion and moral structure of Rome. It survived destruction by paying vast tributes to the barbarians. Later, after it developed it's own Imperial ambitions, it lost much of it's power.

The Renaissance came out of the Italian peninsula, yes. The area was split into many territories and city states; no fragments of the Roman Empire existed save ruins. Florence and other feudal states began to thrive because of trade with the East and the influence of nearby states such as Venice, where feudalism was being replaced by commerce, republicanism and a climate of personal liberty (human rights).

The expression 'human rights' is indeed fairly modern. I generalize. But every able ruler in history has faced a choice -- treat it's citizens as commodities or treat it's citizens as, well, citizens. Those who did the latter generally enjoyed prosperity; those who did not subsisted on the vicious cycle of relying on conquest to maintain power, which limited power, leading to more conquest.
Sadly, there are more examples in history of the former. The history of our planet is the sound of empires falling. But all the things that have endured have come about from the influence of free commerce, personal liberty and an absence of government oppression.

You're the one who needs to get his facts right.

Thank you to the moderator for the help.

I also have a hard time playing as an evil character. I didn't so much in the first two fallout games. After being a generally good character in Fallout 1, I didn't feel too bad about wiping out Shady Sands just so my karma would get low enough to where I could shoot the overseer to death for screwing me over at the end. I think I felt more guilt by killing dogs than people. But in Fallout 3 and in New Vegas, I have a really hard time with killing innocent people. I don't know...maybe because FO3 and NV are a lot more realistic? In FO3 I became a cannibal and I would eat dead people in front of others just so my karma would plummet and at times I felt bad. Sometimes I'd attack (not kill) a passerby in the wastes, let them try to escape and then hunt them down, and every time I did it I had trouble doing it, but that was me having a truly evil character. I just started NV over and this time I'm trying to be evil. I'm not quite "evil" yet. Right now I'm neutral but once I get my skills up heads are going to roll. This time I'm going to side with the Legion.

As a history teacher by profession I have to point out that this is nonsense. In the real world tyrannies are far more unstable and prone to strife and civil war than democracies are. That you at some stage of development have to have tyrants, slavery and misogyny is ridicolus. Historical development doesnt follow any set formula that can be replicated. Most backward and tyrannical societys never develop into what we consider modern civilized societies. Rome, for example, most certainly did not. It just collapsed and left Europe in chaos and at the mercy of warlords.

The cultural and intellectual heritage it left was mostly developed by democratic Athens, a society who largely demonized tyrants. Claiming that a society like Rome is a necessary step towards a modern world is silly . Especially, since in the real world, there is a thousand year gap between the fall of the roman empire and the first beginnings of what we would call the modern world. So Cesars great plan is that he is going to murder, pillage and reintroduce fascism. Loosely based on the ideals of a long dead empire who had cituzens who understood the world in a totally different way than anyone in the wasteland does? Then hope that something good will come of it 1500 years later? The NCR at least have a plan with what they are doing(and as with most plans that involve large populations with very diverse peoples, it has to progress slowly and consideratly to be succesfull) while Cesar is lost in rationalization and wishful thinking.

Even so, Cesars legion doesnt promote anything that later civilizations can build on. In the real world, codified law was one of the things that Rome left us to emulate. But in New Vegas, the NCR already has this, making Cesars legion even more pointless in development towards proper civilization. They dont have any technology or philosophy that isnt already availeble to the rest of the big factions in the wasteland.

Yeah a gang of brutal thugs held together for the worship of one man and not his ideas, be it in battle or old age the legion will crumble with Caesar gone. Both House and Marcus claim that with out Caesar the legion will crumble, and unless you have some evidence to backup they can survive long term with out there leader, they are the worst hope for long term stability in the wasteland.

Welcome. Glad you're here, 'cause I've retired from discussing Caesar's Legion.
There's an emoticon that illustrates how I feel.. Yeah, here -- :banghead:

If the Legion uses fear to maintain order (I think) won't they have a lot of rebellions as soon as they appear weak?

Egypt- slaves
Britan-slaves
America-slaves

Just to name a few potent examples of how slavery HELPED (wether you like it or not) shape our modern world. I think your ignoring the darker side of humanity. But thats ok cuz cuz i'll take the whip...you can have the chains...freedom is strength(Legion). Not the political illusion of gifted privlige(NCR). To me Fall Out seems to nail humanity right on the head. 500 years ago 500 years from now. Eutopia is an illusion we wrap or selves in so that we may ignore the other side of the coin.

I for one dont assume that the world we have is so bad, and like slavery of old the things you grow tired of may be a very important and necessary part of our worlds construct wether your morals allow tolerance to this is irrelevant. It simply is.
When it comes right down to it, as long as there are two working minds there will be differing opinions. a differance of opinions leads conflict(no matter how small), and conflict can be known as war. So now were down to the TRUE lesson of Fall Out. WAR NEVER CHANGES. So yes I need you as much as you need me my friend, because...well simply war never changes.

So no, Fall Out isnt a SAVE the plant kind of game or even ment to inspire that. It is simply a beautiful parody of the duality of man...hows that for pshyco babble. boh yah!

You missing out, the legion has the best ending no more to be said (Most fun and diffrent battle scene from the others.

500 different end options? you mean various slide combinations? thats all it does, and no matter who's side you're on, the quests play out the same, there isn't much in game changes so the game plays the same pretty much no matter who's side you're on, the map world is lacking random events/encounters, lacking variaton in enemy spawns, lacking buildings and dungeons to explore, lacking fun enemies to fight at higher levels, we can on and on, but the map world isn't dynamic and so replaying it is pretty boring because the entire map is predictable, so once you play the game a couple time, no more suprises at all and it just becomes pointless to cruise around the map. obsidian went for the "believable" and "plausible" approach and it resulted in a very boring game once you're familiar with the map a little bit.