That's mighty positive of you. I, though, am a cybnic by nature. So, what I predict of Skyrim with... ehm, Fallout 4, is - so far - dualwielding, further streamlining of stats to release the player from difficult choices in the beginning, perktrees (Beth just can't let go of the perks, they're soooo fun to pick even when redundant), little focus on story and writing, big (huge) focus on random disconnected exploring and worldbuilding. (I'll save this message so that I can see how wrong - hopefully - or right I am). Hopefully we'll see the opposite of that.

Anyways, it was a nice song - wasn't it? I listen to i quite often even though I am a metal head of the extreme kind.

I am a pessimist by nature but when it comes to Fallout I can't bring myself to give up on it. From everything I learned about Bethesda chances are they will do away with RPG in Fallout and make it a FPS so mindless " it could've spewed from the Powerbook of the laziest Hollywood hack." That they will learn nothing from New Vegas.

I just hope they try something different and make a Fallout Game for once insted of their copy an paste FPS and TES games.

No, what I mean is that Eden let's him go through with it because Autumn may rebel if he didn't back down, he agrees to get rid of Autumn and buy time for his own goals; I believe this was something like your arguement a long time ago when I said that Eden risked lives because he caved and allowed Autumn to go. If Eden hadn't pissed people off in some way then Eden would have been able to tell Autumn where to go and a more practical plan could be devised.

I don't know where you would get that figure from. We have no indication as too the Enclave's numbers, it's like saying that you think Megaton has a population of 15 or whatever because that's all the engine can support; in any event I would think that a highly conservative estimate.



Never in a millenium of Sundays will I ever say anything good about Autumn.



Yes that's exactly what I mean. It was in response to your idea about Autumn having a group of dedicated followers, Eden can see and hear everything inside the complex, something which even Williams was aware of when he contacted him. He would know exactly who was on Autumn's side and would have probably posted them to the field outposts and out of the way like Autumn. My pinultimate point is that I believe Eden used the LW because he knew a net was tightening around him; Autumn had majority support and may dispose of him soon, the LW was brought in, quite possibly the only person in RR whom he could trust. He would muster all of his charisma and will the LW into completing his Project, so that at least he could die knowing that he had won and that his glorious capital was pure; if anyone got in the way, then so be it.



You said it yourself, most of the male population are in the military (though there are female officers), I would think that Eden would manipulate and encourage a predominatly military culture, it invalidates anyone who could potentionally rival his Presidency before he has completed the work of his idol Richardson.

I'm going to retire for the night now, feel free to post though and I'll check it in the morning.

Brilliant maybe, not sure about genius part. But he have the tendency of thinking the wastelander can go straight back to pre-war life style.


Really? as far as I know there would be many die in front of his gates and he would do nothing about it; that seems genocide to me.


House also have unique ability to temp people to betray him.

Oh, I haven't given up for it. Not in the slightest. We've had some fallbacks (PoS, Fallout 3 - and the 14 year wait), but there is also incline from the ashes to certain degree (New Vegas). So the spiral, as of now, is upwards even thought NV is just a small improvement in gameplay and that Beth can (or will) never reach the writing of Obsidian (PROVE ME WRONG BETH). So in the end, and despite my overflowing criticisms, I do have hope for the series (Otherwise I wouldn't be here, and if Fo4 turns to Skyrim with Guns.... you won't see me here again .. at that point Fallout is Officially dead to me).

Wow mention the Enclave and the fan boys come out of the wood works. Lemme break this down for yall:

Enclave = bad. They are the villains for a reason. Look at the intro to Fallout 2, that all the proof you need.

There was this oak stuff around, but from what birch did you crawl out?

I am hoping Beth teams up with Obsidian at least when it comes to the writing of Fallout 4. If Fallout 4 turns out to be a my worst nightmare then chances are I will give up on it. I will buy it an play to to judge it but I'll be around for sure like I am now as its being made. If it looks bad I may skip buying it.

There is still a Hail Mary out there but we can't get into it but it involves the courts.

You're more optimistic than me, much more. I DO hope you're right, though. What wouldn't i give for (at least) a decent Fallout game. But I do not drown my hopes in an empty bag anymore. I'll see the depravity (if it is such) when it comes out as information, and make my judgements as such.

Look at the http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/The_Scourge, oh but Lyon's BoS only commited one genocide and kidnapped the children to be turned into soldiers, they mean well so I guess their good people.

Look at the NCR hiring raiders through a massive criminal organisation to bully Vault City into annexation, oh but they mean well so their good people.

Let me spell it out for y'all, everyone is instantly willing to believe something is good if they look good and they mean good; immeasurable good will come from the Enclave winning; a healthy, educated, safe and peaceful society. But you never see it, never even think about it for a second what it could be like 100 years post-Enclave. Now I am not saying that the Enclave aren't bad people, what I am saying is that just looking at something and going "Huh, evil, therefore, nothing good will come of it." It isn't really a good way to go about things.

I would say then that the soldiers who allowed Autumn to prevent the intiation of a plan that meant the Enclave's victory, were in the wrong. Eden also may not have had to "piss anyone off" really at all, as we have seen, even Autumn believed that he was still loyal to Eden. The soldiers who countermanded the President's order may not have also truly understood what they were doing (like Autumn) I see no reason to believe that if Autumn felt he was still being a loyal soldier of Eden, that his soldiers didn't as well.



I'm just guessing what I think the numbers of Autumnists were (taking into consideration the Enclave outposts throughout the CW, the soldiers who were stationed/sent to AAFB and the number of men that must have been in Raven Rock and those that Autumn actually took.

I in no way pretend to assume that my estimate is 100% correct, but considering that we don't know the status of the Enclave soldiers who didn't go with Autumn, thats how I view the numbers of the Autumnists.





Its possible that he did know who was on Autumn's side, and during the "purge" of Raven Rock, he took care of those disloyal elements (perhaps he made it so that he placed the majority of Autumnist supporters in Raven Rock in a specfic area, thats not out of the question).

I don't see how Eden would have needed to feel afraid of Autumn displacing him. Why does Lt. Williams not contact Autumn or talk with a superior close to Autumn? He obviously felt that the President superceded Autumn's authority. I doubt Autumn could have just said one day said "okay sorry guys no more President", not only that, but it becomes apparent at the end that Autumn had no desire to usurp Eden, in fact, he fervetly believed in Eden's right to rule.

Somehow I blame Bethesda's writing on making this a difficult topic to debate. :dry:




I think that necessity required a predominently military culture, there's simply not enough Enclave now (in my view) to have a government other than a quasi-dictatorship. You can make the argument that Eden and Eden alone was responsible for there not being any other government officials but him, but I don't really see any hard evidence for that (and I would strongly disagree , heck we don't even know for sure if Eden didn't have a cabinent or Vice-President, since we saw so little of Raven Rock, maybe they're the "Enclave high command" that is mentioned in Broken Steel).



Yeah I am too. Good debate though.

Lyons didnt commit genocide, they went in and wiped out mutations (trogs anyone?) and hostiles. And I really dont know if taking the children to train as soldiers would be considered kidnapping or not, nobody is going to try and argue that the Pitt was better off after the scourge and the children they took were better off in Brotherhood service.

And your right, we dont ever get to see what it would be like if the Enclave had been able to follow through with there plans but its a situation where the end doesn't justify the means. If the price of peace is complete and total genocide of a people then is it really worth it? Especially when you consider that with the Enclaves might they could have tamed the wasteland without killing everyone who isnt "pure" in their eyes.

Sooo... Eden vs House...

[sidesteps 'future of the series under Bethesda' discussion]

House's plan makes more sense, or at least, he gives a much better account of it when pressed (it still suffers from the 'I'm just waiting for that special guy to carry out all my plans' weakness, but hey, in a videogame I suppose we can cut that a little slack). He also has a lot more to show for his efforts: like or loathe the Strip, it's an undeniably impressive achievement in the Wasteland (the idea of it, that is, not the super-crappy in-game realisation of it.) As troperiffic reclusive billionares go, he's almost three-dimensional, which is a plus.

Eden on the other hand, is little more than a "muahaha" evil villain. However, Malcolm McDowell's performance elevates the character signicantly, and the way he's introduced, the foreshadowing of Enclave radio and Eden's fireside chats, is much, much more striking and effective imo. When my courier met House for the first time, he could barely give two hoots, whereas meeting Eden for the first time was much more exciting because of the drip-drip of build-up throughout the game. Buuut, the supercomputer-reality of that meeting was pretty underwhelming, there's no getting round it.

So, on balance, Eden shades it on points, but take Malcolm McDowell's VA out of the equation and House wins easily, poor man's Andrew Ryan that he is.

Do trogs look like they can have children to you?

You have just said the ends don't justify the means yet killing a childs parents, because they may be slightly mutated, and then taking the children to an admittedly better existance; that sounds an awful lot like a smaller scale version of what I am talking about.

Look I am not saying that the Enclave are good people, what I mean is to just disregard any hypothetical future that may arise from them and just continue to call them evil isn't right. Like a guy whom I asked what he thought the Enclave would do after winning said, "Enslave the survivors and continue inhuman experiments." I just facepalmed, at that because it just shows a complete lack of thought.

Richardson admitted in Fallout 2 that a pan Enclave-Mainland commuity might work but would ultimately fail because of the Enclave's inferior numbers. Regardless to the view propogated by F3, mainly, the Enclave's plan is not because they don't like mutants, it's because nobody on the mainland would respect them and because they do not have the resources to effectively police it. They just think that to start again might be the best option in the long-run; I mean, it's not for personal gain, by the time the Enclave have begun any major rebuilding most will be dead, in-fact they will have lived through the hard work and died before the payoff. Richardson himself has worked himself to an early grave, just a tired, stressed, frail man.

And again with the "pure" as if it's unjustified, sorry but this is a real irritant of mine, everything on the mainland has experienced changes, well most things have; is it so inconceivable that humand have too? Real world radiation effects have happened in Fallout, Vault City has experienced radioactive comtamination through irradiated groundwater from an old nuclear station and now fertility and genetic defects have become so bad that all births are controlled in cycles through artificial insemination.

Your right im sure some of the trogs in the Pitt do have children, but they are also mutated to the point that they would probably kill said children and eat them if left in the same room aone with them.

And the second point, just because the Enclave doesnt have the numbers to re-take the mainland does not give them the right to just wipe everyone out and start over. If all else take back what you can and patrol it, keep it safe from the wasteland but you dont commit genocide just because you lack the recources to take back the whole country.

The savages won't, but anyone with an intuitive understanding of civility will see the light of his attempt to culture people. He managed to civilize three of the biggest tribes, so I'm sure he can do it to normal wastelanders.



Actually, anyone who dies at the front gate brought it on themselves. The Securitron and Old Ben both warn people to stay out of the boxed in area of the gate unless you meet the 2,000 cap credit check. Don't confuse stupidity of the individual as 'House is evil'. He has set up rules to get in, and he's programmed the bots to warn all to keep away lest you meet the requirements.


Not true, Benny has that all to familiar human weakness of insatiable greed. Give Benny something nice, and he'll want something nicer. And the Omertas are already known to House to be reliably underhanded. House has kept a close eye on them, hence he asks you to find out why a tribe who are known to be greedy and underhanded are being so blindly obedient suddenly. If you look at the Chairmen and the White Glove Society, and the strip vendor they are all quite grateful for their lives under House.

Eden was good, but didn t have as much screen time as House.

I have to go with House as more interesting. Go in the back and look at him lol

I like Mr. House better. Unlike Eden, the house is not a genocidal maniac (even though Mr. House seems to prone to dictatorship.)

I swear you stalk me on the forum just to counter any of my anti-House post..... :cryvaultboy:

Attempt he did, but the problem is House fail to see the foundations of pre-war life style are wiped clean. Even thought the tribes are "urbanized", they are still wastelanders not pre-war Americans; they just don't belong to same the culture. Yet House think if they look like pre-war people they would act like so and he can carry out his interrupted plan as if the 200 year gap doesn't exist.


By dieing in front of his gate I mean they are turn down by the 2k credit check. House have enough securitrons to at least keep Freeside in a rough order, and create supplement industries for the Strip. Yet he just have his securitrons patron the Strip and its gate.


White Gloves......yeah.....Mortimer and his friends?

All three of the families have a good portion of members against him, I would say House is pretty bad at keeping anyone on leash.

I agree with you're 1st statement but Bethesda gets way to many bags of turd flung at them for it then they should the original fallout fans remind me of the old bos religiously hugging there precious codex .And yes the writing could of been better but it's not really what Bethesda do like Obsidian can't really do exploration or the 4 d's different developers develop differently.

I have an Oblivion guard sense. "STOP! You've spoken bad about House. Repent or be flogged Verbally" :spotted owl:


Not as an attack against you, but I think that's an unintelligent opinion to have. 'A war happened, therefore we cannot go back and salvage the good things of the past.'. If a man, or woman, has the drive, the will, and the vision, they can do anything they put their mind to. House is one of those people, and grudgingly to admit, Caesar is too. They both have tamed and civilized unintelligent savages and made them into something useful.



I don't care of some poor person can't get onto the Strip, anything in The Strip is a luxury, not a neccesity. Gambling, six, liquor, it's all privelege items. those in the Strip are rich enough to waste excess money, and who better to take their money than House, a man with a real plan? Also, that's simply not true, if you don't finish off The Fiends, House sends his Securitrons to McCarran and Outer Vegas to wipe them out, which implies slowly but surely, House protects Vegas as a whole. (Don't forget, anything before Hoover, House has been trying to keep his plans largely secret and his resources on hand for the battle.)


One could argue the same of NCR and Caesar. You can't take a minority and call it a majority problem. If you prevent Mortimer from suceeding, the White Gloves are grateful you stop his plans.

Yeah i was a bit peeved that you see him for the whole of a minute with so much build up going in to it but still think he was very fascinating to talk to same with mr house .He's kinda letting himself go he should really try the shake weight as he has that big tube attached to his crotch can't imagine he's having a barrel of lol's.

Voice Actors, McDowell is much better although Rene is good. I wished they used more of his Odo accent but oh well it still turned out pretty good.

Character wise House wins, he's just a much cooler character with a better story.

"Members generally consider most people born outside the Enclave to be mutants fit only for eradication."-Vault wiki

Dam, my invisible spell is broken.


I think you misunderstand me. I am not saying people in Fallout can't picks up, as they all did. What I am against is the fact the House rarely acknowledge the world have changed, the culture have changed and the pre-war civilization's foundation is mostly gone. My go on House is that his is a typical Ryanian (lack of the ability to understand less brilliant people, and/or underestimate them) and only care about having what he use to have (instead of thinking big or wider).


I am not saying the poor can't get to the Strip, but the fact that House have done little (if not none) for those outside of it. Why restrict yourself on the Strip? Why allow the NCR have opportunity to gain popularity in outer Vegas?

House have more than securitrons, and if he set up workshops in Freeside to support the Strip, he probably doesn't even need to send more securitrons. Fact is, majority of securitrons are outside of everyone's vision anyways, why hide something that no one can see?

Not to mention if he have done so he would have more cards on the table and doesn't need to play as many cards under his sleeve.


The White Gloves are equally grateful for shaking House off as well. The three families are foundations of the Strip, and the *Leaders* of these foundations are willing to overthrow House. The NCR equivalent would be like Leaders of Los angeles, the Hub and Glow all plotting to rebel.