Since I've (unfortunately) never played multiplayer, I would be interested to know what you all think of the balancing, specifically the weapons and ships. How balanced they are, how powerful they are, how much skill they take to use, even how n00by they are if you feel that way. However, I want a decent response if you hate it or love it, not "MD is teh total suxx0rs" or "Fusion FTW!!".

I'm sure there will be disagreements, but I'm sure we can keep it civil.

So here are the weapons in full order:

Descent 1 (and 2):

Laser cannon - Level 1
Laser cannon - Level 2
Laser cannon - Level 3
Laser cannon - Level 4
Quad Laser cannons (I know it's a powerup, but it's more like a weapon)
Vulcan cannon
Spreadfire cannon
Plasma cannon
Fusion cannon

Concussion missile
Homing missile
Proximity bomb
Smart missile
Mega missile

Descent 2:

Super Laser cannon - Level 5
Super Laser cannon - Level 6
Gauss cannon
Helix cannon
Phoenix cannon
Omega cannon

Flash missile
Guided missile
Smart mine
Mercury missile
Earthshaker missile

Descent 3:

Laser cannon
Super Laser cannon
Vauss cannon
Mass Driver
Napalm cannon
Microwave cannon
Plasma cannon
EMD gun
Fusion cannon
Omega cannon

Concussion missile
Frag missile
Homing missile
Guided missile
Impact mortar
Napalm rocket
Smart missile
Cyclone missile
Mega missile
Black Shark missile

Proximity bomb
Smart mine
Gunboy
Chaff
Bouncing Betty

And here are the ships:

Pyro GX (Descent 1 + 2)
Pyro GL (Descent 3)
Phoenix Interceptor (Descent 3)
Magnum AHT (Descent 3)
Black Pyro (Descent 3) A massive thank you to EA for:
- Producing great quality games time and time again
- Providing excellent technical support
- Never destroying any highly acclaimed studios for profit
- Never ripping people off
- Never wasting people's time

I only played D3

well
in D3 the Ship's are well balanced
even for noobs a Black Pyro isn't much better than a Tank or a Phoenix, but it's important to choose the right ship for the right tactic (Tunnel-ratting, Hit-n-Run, Tank, balanced)
the ships are better balanced as better the skill of the pilot is (I'm able to fly in all Ships, and use the right tactic at the right situation)

The Weapons are for a noob not worse balanced than in shooters like UT, some Weapons u can handle easy und aim fast, others not. There are a few weapons that are crappy.


Blue Laser: Start-Weapon, but enough for a Pro to make several kills,
Super Laser: Strong, nice on very short and medium-long distances, easy to dodge, harder to hit with it.
Vauss: Very nice on long Distances. if mastered with high skill, one of the deadliest Weapons
MD: Hard to aim better players, but with skill the deadliest Primary, hard to dodge
NapalmCannon: Short ranged, average Power, not useful.
Microwave: Extreme Damage with Rapidfire (when in a Tankl or a BP), hard to aim (shots block the sight)
not usful.
Plasma: Nice on short to medium distances, bad on long Distances, not useful.
EMD: Nice on medium to long distances, combined with homing Secondarys
Fusion: Deadly on short range, extremly powerfull when charged, Triplefusion from a Tank will instant kill all Ships (when not over 100 Shield), hard to aim on Long range
Omega: extreme short range but powerfull and homing, not useful.

Concussion: nice to use togehter with MD or Fusion or Vauss, hard to dodge (hardly visible) hard to aim exactly

Frag: Able to kill multiple enemies at once, easy to aim, hard to dodge when well placed, causes a lot of suicides on short distances

Homing: Nice but weak, easy to dodge

Guided: well it's guided, it's as stupid as its Pilot

Mortar: Medium ranged, powerfull, able to kill more than one enemy at once, instant ca 150 Shield damage when direct hit, easy to aim, hard to dodge when well placed, else easy.

Naplam: extremly fast, good for blocking Tunnels, hard to Aim, hard to dodge, Napalm-blobs are dangerous, possibility for suicides.

Smart: average skill needed to dodge, nice for killing guys who are hunting you, easy to aim, kills BP and Pheenie instant (when not over 100 Shields)

Cyclone: nice on short distances, nice in small rooms, not very useful

Mega: Powerfull, hard to aim because super easy to dodge, deadly on short range

Blackshark: Crap!!!


Ships:
Pyro: nice for switchers, average speed and shield, good for with MD, Vauss,
Phoenix: fast, weak shields, nice for Hit and run, nice wirh MD,Laser, Plasma,
Magnum (Tank): slow, strong shields, good for precise shots, nice with Fusion, Microwave, Lasers,
Black Pyro (BP): average speed and shield, (weaker and slower than the Pyro), nice for tunnelrating an close distances, powerfull with Plasma and Microwave,


Descent is an EXTREMELY skillbased shooter, the ways to move and to aim are difficult to learn, and your combat-style is very personal, each Player fights in an other way, some Pilots are able to recognize enemy players depending on their flight-style.

The Pyro GL is a well balanced ship. It has a standard payload and standard shields.

The Phoenix is a fighter class ship. Small payload and weak shields, but fast.

The Magnum is the tank. Very high payload, strong shields, and fair but slow maneuverability.

The Black Pyro is basically just like the Pyro GL. However, It has slightly less weaker shields. So small its almost not noticeable. A proving factor is a Black Pyro can not take a full Smart missile hit where as a GL can but left with no shields.

The Pyro GX is, well "The Shit". Though, since it was not officially in Descent 3, we cant really compair them.

As for balance issues, they are very well balanced.

Descent 1 (and 2):

Laser cannon - Level 1
Laser cannon - Level 2
Laser cannon - Level 3
Laser cannon - Level 4
Quad Laser cannons (I know it's a powerup, but it's more like a weapon)

Lasers were never really great until you got quad level 4. Then they became a great weapon deadly in the right hands. Quite dodgeable which is a requirement for any balanced weapon in descent.

Vulcan cannon
I never liked the vulcan cannon, though it was not as powerful as some of the laser weapons when in a duel between 2 maneuverable players it became the most annoying weapon in D1. It would have been better if the shells were dodgeable.

Spreadfire cannon
Weak weapon that was great for cleanup work in multi. Also great for use against many robots at a time. Utility weapon that shouldn't have been removed.

Plasma cannon
Great streaming weapon that was quite dodgeable but with the correct usage devastating against opponents.

Fusion cannon
Once you knew how to use it you became a terror. All would flee and then get purple death from behind.

Concussion missile
Basic missile that had good utility usage.

Homing missile
Deadly. Not over powerful.

Proximity bomb
Almost useless, though annoying for opponents at time.

Smart missile
Very powerful, though still dodgeable. Great for noobs but still not game breaking. Added to the game.

Mega missile
Part of descent, but i felt it should have been slower. I didn't like having more than 1 in a multiplayer level.

Descent 2:

Super Laser cannon - Level 5
Super Laser cannon - Level 6
Eh, just better versions of the laser4. Unneccesary.

Gauss cannon
One of the few things done right for D3 was the removal of this way overpowered weapon. Undodgeable weapon that made turning it off a must or it made any D2 game unplayable against other people. it made lasers irrelevant.

Helix cannon
utility weapon. Don't use it too long or you are defenseless. Not a great weapon but not overly annoying.

Phoenix cannon
Not a fan, but it's not a big deal to have it either.

Omega cannon
Using this one was pretty nuts, though it was powerful you were never a serious threat to win if this was your main weapon.

Flash missile
Utility missile, fun to use and have used against. No problems with it.

Guided missile
Fun to include, properly balanced too.

Smart mine
Great for spawn killing, and thus a bad weapon. Enough with the mines.

Mercury missile
As close as you can come to a hitscan missile. Horrible inclusion, and a weapon that had to be removed from D2 multiplayer games to make them more playable. Less annoying than gauss, but more annoying than everything else. If you can't dodge it, it's a bad weapon.

Earthshaker missile
Very powerful yet dodgeable weapon. Made a small contribution to the game though I'd rather there weren't any more of these in D4.

Descent 3:

Laser cannon
Super Laser cannon
Eh, not great not bad.

Vauss cannon
Needed to be nerfed, but was especially overpowered in open spaces. Generally I hate this weapon as I did the gauss, but at least it wasn't a splash damage weapon.

Mass Driver
The reason I quit playing D3. Simply the most overpowered, overused weapon in all of descent. Undodgeable made it inexcusable to include in the game and since it was in as a default on most levels, it ruined multiplayer completely. I will not look forward to playing D4 if this is included.

Napalm cannon
Utility weapon with little use.

Microwave cannon
Better gun that was given credit. It should have done more to disrupt the person getting shot.

Plasma cannon
Nerfed to the point of being useless. Plasma should be like D1&2 or don't bother. Never used.

EMD gun
useless utility gun. Only usefull for someone camping at the end of a hallway firing at random targets. Needs removed.

Fusion cannon
Should have been left alone. I liked the 3 fusion though.

Omega cannon
Meh.

Concussion missile
Smae old same old

Frag missile
Actually not bad on the balancing here.

Homing missile
Not horrible, pretty much the same.

Guided missile
Same as before.

Impact mortar
Not the worst weapon. Had some good defensive use.

Napalm rocket
Remove the napalm. useless.

Smart missile
Nothing new.

Cyclone missile
Good nerf of the earthshaker. Useful, dodgeable, well balanced.

Mega missile
Annoying, but a joy to play with compared to some of the other D3 weapons.

Black Shark missile
Big misatke putting this one in. Overpowered, way too common.

Proximity bomb
meh

Smart mine
still not a good idea.

Gunboy
interesting. Needs to be easier to hit with weapons. Possibly make a remote gunboy that you can control while leaving your ship defenseless. Would have interesting team possibilities.

Chaff
Bouncing Betty
interesting.


And here are the ships:

Pyro GX (Descent 1 + 2)
Classic, love them.

Pyro GL (Descent 3)
Hate the perma afterburner.

Phoenix Interceptor (Descent 3)
Should have been smallwe in comparison to the other ships.

Magnum AHT (Descent 3)
Should have been larger in comparison top the other ships.

Black Pyro (Descent 3)Great for noobs who want to say they are the best pilot evar. Not using this puts you at a disadvantage. Poorly balanced.

Enough with the Mass Driver bashing. If you cant dodge it, well then you just svck. Sure its an insta hit weapon, but given the reload time, you have plenty of time to run off and hide, maybe let off a few homing weapons. I never had a problem with it and im no where near a great descent player.

The EMD is not useless. Its slight homing capabilities has its uses. Means you don't have to be 100% accurate, can be used to scope out a tunnel to see if someones waiting down it. Just because you found it useless does not make it useless to everyone.

I'm not bashing anything. I'm addressing a very real problem with D3 that needs to be taken care of for D4. Why would you want to keep a gun in the game that drove away not just me but countless other long time fans. If you can't dodge it, that's because it's a hitscan weapon that due to the game coding is not possible to dodge. If your only solution to defending against a weapon is to run away, then that gun is overpowered. If your solution to a fight is to simply run away, then you svck as a descent pilot. The MD problem is in a dogfight all you have to do is circle until your crosshair is on the target and hit fire. Instantly they are hit. Usually 2 hits will kill them. It's very easy to pull off, and way too overpowered.

The EMD is useless in a dogfight, and has minimal use as a utiliity weapon. In multiplayer though, you're an idiot if you camp out in a tunnel somewhere and get hit by the EMD. The spreadfire or helix meant you didn't have to be 100% accurate, the EMD is just a bad weapon.

Maybe cause we simply don't believe it drove away as many people as you claim?

And yes, it's your fricking job to stay out of his reticle and blast him away with Vauss, e.g. If you can't do this, practice. My list: ditch all lasers but the super laser (pointless variety as with Vista), keep the Black Shark cause it's fun (especially with pilots how fire them and stay too close themselves) and bring back the Gauss! Moon's Descendarium - THE single-player guide to D1-3
Maintainer of the 'Official' D3 FAQ
DXX-Rebirth: Play D1/D2 on modern PCs

Of course, since bringing back all of the most overpowered weapons in the game is the best way to solve the problem.

I could kill people with the MD or the lasers or the vauss, but to be truly competitive against the best the MD was REQUIRED. That made it broken of overpowerful. In D1 the weapon of choice was always a matter of play style but in D3 it was simply a matter of "this is the easiest weapon to get kills with". The gauss was the same in D2. The reason people liked those weapons? They svcked and otherwise couldn't kill the really good descent pilots. Those weapons removed the skill of piloting from the game and reduced it to the level that most shooters now employ which is basically a flash game of point and click. Too bad a player to lead your target? That's ok, just use one of the broken weapons! Can't dodge anything? it doesn't matter! Just use this weapon and even though you'll die too you'll get a couple of kills!

I question anyone who would want to ruin D4 by putting those weapons in the current state back in.

Right, so you were one of the really good pilots! Only just not good enough to dodge those overpowered weapons and kill ppl first who were using them on you. Tough luck, quit whining already!

And just because really good pilots like you apparently are too stupid to disallow weapons the game should come with less variety? I don't think so. Moon's Descendarium - THE single-player guide to D1-3
Maintainer of the 'Official' D3 FAQ
DXX-Rebirth: Play D1/D2 on modern PCs

What's the point in playing a game if it isn't balanced properly? D1 and to a lesser extent D2 was so much fun just flying around and using different weapons were a joy. Hell you could even play with level 1's if you wanted to embarrass someone. In D1 there was none of the running away with AB crap that the other two had, but the only games to play D3 were online servers where you couldn't select the weapons to be used. Almost every server out there just let all the weapons be used so there was no choice as to which weapons were used in game.

I'm not here to brag about how good I was, just to establish that I know what I'm talking about when I say the MD was a problem (as was the gauss). Stop taking what is an attempt to bring back the best franchise in gaming without the problems that led to its failure as a personal attack on you, some guy I've never met or talked to before. If everyone ends up using the same weapons because they are simply the most effective choice in every situation then the development team has failed to make a good multiplayer experience. What's the point in all of those weapons if they are never used?

Well
i think, you never played really D3 Multiplayer,
the MD may be a hitscan weapon, but you can Dodge it easy (even me), and not all people like using the MD, because it's really hard to handle if u play against pro's.
Anyway: The Shockrifle in UT, the Railgun in Quake, the AWM in CS, the Gauss in Halflife 1 are also hitscan weapons, so quit whinig, the MD is NOT OVERPOWERED

And EMD is not bad, learn to use it, und you'll get thet

I played D3 enough. I only played it a couple of years though and in fact quit that to go back to the better older versions. It's clear you have no defense for keeping the MD when you try to attack me instead of state why the MD should be in the game. I would argue that anyone who argued for the inclusion of the MD never played D3 multiplayer or never understood the strategies and techniques needed to excel at the game.

Descent is different when it comes to guns. With so many laser weapons that 'float' toward the enemy where they can see the ordinance on the way and then dodge, the hitscan weapons are out of place and overpowered. Maybe if it took more than a couple of hits to get a kill with the thing it wouldn't be so bad. I have offered ways to make the md semi-acceptable in these threads, but it its current form I would certainly call it broken. Here's another idea for the out of place sniper weapon: require a pilot to deploy their ship to the wall in order to fire. If they don't deploy it should damage their own ship and knock them back a good distance. Damaging your own ship is not out of place in the descent universe as the fusion already does which requires you to use it sparingly or risk killing yourself from repeated use.

The EMD, I don't really care. If you feel like getting killed then be my guest and try to hit me with it. It just seems to be taking up space in the list of weapons.

My dear friend...
I play D3 online every week, IN A CLAN, and you played years before.
Well i guess you are the one, that never really played multiplayer.

Clans have never impressed me. I find the attitudes of their members lacking.

I am here to discuss how the game can be improved so that more than the last 30 or 40 people still playing D3 will enjoy D4.

Except they aren't the "last 30 or 40 ppl". Check Planetdescent.com (A community mostly dedicated to D3 with around 5000 registered users) as well as other forums with a LOT of ppl enjoying D3 (including the descentbb.net, descentbb.net, descentforum.de, etc)

The Descent community is a LOT bigger than you think.
(and this includes fans of all 3 Descent titles ) Visit my website: http://www.pumosoftware.co.nr
and my forums: http://3d-get.de/pumosoft/forum/
There you'll find info about Pumo Mines (my Descent2/D2X-XL mission & mod project)

Fusion Cannon was way too powerful in Descent 3... Overcharged Fusion could kill any ship even if shields maxed at 200.

Mass Driver was a big annoyance in small mines... Imagine getting hit the first time... then bouncing off the floor in a strange orientation...then getting hit again before you knew it hit again... boom dead before you could get a shot off.

Black Shark would have been great in Multiplayer IF ALL ships ONLY had a maximum of 1... I have seen people in Descent 3 set the weapons respawn to 1 second and someone in the Magnum load all FIVE Blackshark Missiles, then fire blindly in the general direction of another player or set of players that they couldn't even see... the Black Shark would cause a lot of bounce off the walls damage and before one could recover... 2, 3, 4, 5, or more Black Shark Missiles fired again into the same area... Even with 200 shields you died too quick to this Black Shark Spamming technique... No Skill required to get a lot of kills.

EMP was a totally useless weapon especially against players that had any flying skills. I remember playing in Entropy Mode in Steel Vapor with EMP Fairies shooting off all their energy then ducking back into the Energy Center then recharging... repeat ad nauseum... Fun part was to kill the EMP Fairy Dusters over and over and over then immediately take away their energy centers first.

Napalm Gun was totally useless unless very close to the other enemy. I used to laugh when newbies tried to kill me with it from a long distance away from me. Often I would tell them that I needed to show them the range of the weapon to help them.... then have them fly above me on a parallel path with me stationary and them flying ahead to see the range of the weapon... then I would show them what it looked like when they were firing it at me from a long distance away from me.

Core Map gave me extreme vertigo... after playing in it for about 5 minutes, I got sick to my stomach. Core was way too small... A pilot that knew the level could predict where someone would run to and have a shot ready to kill the enemy pilot that was running. Yes it took a while to learn but once learned gave the veteran pilot an extreme advantage.

It was also very powerful (and a lot better) on D1, but on D2 Parallax decided to make it weaker.

I'm agree with about the Blackshark. More than one per ship is an annoyance. In fact, i've never liked the Blackshark that much .

I hope D4 to have a weapon more similar to the Earthshaker instead of a Blackshark equivalent. Visit my website: http://www.pumosoftware.co.nr
and my forums: http://3d-get.de/pumosoft/forum/
There you'll find info about Pumo Mines (my Descent2/D2X-XL mission & mod project)

Agree

In Unreal Chaos there is a weapon that acts similar to the black shark; the gravity vortex. Does practically the same thing, only it's a one hit kill weapon. The way it acts however means that even if you are being svcked in you have a chance to escape, a feature that I haven't witnessed with the black shark except for cases of extreame luck or very quick reflexes.

Now, if we look at the redeemer, another one hit kill weapon, it works by firing a very slow moving missile towards the target before setting of a nuclear explosion. This however is completely avoidable; shoot the missile down.

What I'd suggest for the black shark is that the radius of the affected volume is reduced, that the pull gradient is reduced, that it moves slower, that it can be shot down and destroyed and that only one may be carried at any one time. A massive thank you to EA for:
- Producing great quality games time and time again
- Providing excellent technical support
- Never destroying any highly acclaimed studios for profit
- Never ripping people off
- Never wasting people's time

that would be a possibility but i'd prefer something like the Earthshaker
And by the way: I don't know any server where the Black-Shark isn't disabled.
This Weapon really svcks, well in MP it' doesn't kill with one hit (it causes ca 80 damage), but the fact that all enemies are on the same place at this moment makes it easy to destroy them all together.