I promised myself I wouldn't do this, but here I've gone and broken my promise and stuck myself in the back. I'll roll up a newspaper and discipline myself later. I promise.

On with the self-betrayal.

My idea of a perfect game based on Fallout/Fallout2 would be an EVE clone. But without the space part.

- character progression based on real-time age and survival.
- purely player based economy with separated, local-only consignment warehouses.
- goods transporting and trade restriction based on location/range/distance.
- no character levels.
- single-server, open-world, universal, free-for-all, full-loot pvp.
- a bounty system that works. (sorry EVE, it had to be said)
- player-owned structures which are destructible/raidable/vulnerable at all times.

Parts I didn't like about EVE

- heavy use of instancing (gate camps anyone?) -- it’s an obsession. Not a cologne, either. Some think that the way it changes a person’s life is tragic, but they just don’t understand. - Wooz

I actually find myself agreeing with this. Out of curiousity, have you looked at the player made FAQ on Earthrise's forums? If they do that kind of adaptation to Fallout Online, I think it might just be what you are asking for. Mostly.
Fallout Online Forum - Fan Based Community
http://www.FalloutOnlineForum.com

Well then I guess it is a good thing we have Masthead involved. -- it’s an obsession. Not a cologne, either. Some think that the way it changes a person’s life is tragic, but they just don’t understand. - Wooz

I find myself pouring over the Earthrise forums simply because they're going to be working with gamesas on FO. And while I don't want an Eve clone, I will admit that Eve was the best MMO I've ever played to date and it wouldn't be a bad game to emulate. So, by all means, bring the post-apocalyptic Eve!

Hell, if CCP teamed up with gamesas and Runic games... They could probably make the most epic game ever seen my mankind. And now I have a dream. A beautiful, beautiful dream... *drools on keyboard*

Honestly, If it is going to be a clone of any game I really hope it's a clone of EVE. I would be really sad if it was another WoW clone. I'm glad to see the overwhelming number of people that actually want real punishments and real rewards. It is really warming. I'm so done with these games where you kill somebody in PvP and they lose nothing and you don't get anything besides some points. No, I want some of their belongings, I want them to lose something when they die. Please gamesas! Lets have some serious penalties hear.

I support it being an EVE clone in this sense.

Ok... while SOME of what you said has merit other parts are just not feasible in my view.

1.) Real time based skills/survival/character age... Some of us work, some of us work 12hr days and can't get on the game constantly, daily, for hours and hours. Penalizing me for having a life outside the game is a bit unfair, wouldn't you agree?

2.) Purely player based economies tend to lead to heavily inflated prices on everything. People want to think that what they've created is solid gold. Sometimes you have reasonable individuals that understand how things really work.

3.)Transport/trade restrictions based on distance... I can see it to a point, the further you move something the more it costs... but then if I can't get what I need locally I'm going to get it Somewhere.

4.)No levels... this of course is predicated on the whole real time survival and character age thing... Again, I consider it unfair. Some Otaku is gonna bury us all if this is the case.

5.) Single server with totally open full loot PvP... Why restrict yourself to a single server? some people don't WANT 100% free-for-all PvP... as you said, bounty systems don't work... and they won't. They barely work IRL, why should they work online? And full loot... you're a flippin' masochist aren't ya?

6.) Player owned structures that can be burned down, looted for stored equipment (raidable) and that are vulnerable even when the player owning them isn't around... Well, if you want your home and business burned down, you have that right I guess.

Note that a single server isn't very fun for people half way around the world from the servers location.

I was gonna ask this in the faq but might aswell do it here since the subject has came up.

i've read alot about earthrise and applied to the beta a long time ago (but as usual i never get picked for a beta!) but the game does seem promising in almost every aspect, assuming they fixed the awfully slow pvp. now i'm wondering how much, if anything, of earthrise will be in fallout online. modified graphics and physics im guessing is a sure card but what about the skill system and crafting etc? In gaming terms... Life's a die, then you bich.

Ill have to respectfully disagree on all of the ops ideas...does not sound fun to me at all.

I don't think you understand. In EvE, even when logged out your skill gain goes up.

This is better for casual gamers.

1.) Real time based skills/survival/character age... Some of us work, some of us work 12hr days and can't get on the game constantly, daily, for hours and hours. Penalizing me for having a life outside the game is a bit unfair, wouldn't you agree?

In eve you can keep on training skills even when you are outside the game, the only thing you need to do is to have your account activated and select the skills you want to raise. But if there should be character aging the time shouldn't go too fast... because I don't want my character to wither and die within at least a 10 year period... as far as I'm concerned there shouldn't be aging if you adopt EVE's skill learning system.

2.) Purely player based economies tend to lead to heavily inflated prices on everything. People want to think that what they've created is solid gold. Sometimes you have reasonable individuals that understand how things really work.

EVE is a great example of how an economy should work. BUT at the beginning of the game there should be both player and npc market since you need to fill up the market with different merchandise, after a while you can start to remove the NPC market system one piece at a time, that way you will have a controlled market system and if anything fails you can fix it fast.

3.)Transport/trade restrictions based on distance... I can see it to a point, the further you move something the more it costs... but then if I can't get what I need locally I'm going to get it Somewhere.

And thats a bit of the point, mineral X at point Z is cheaper than mineral X at point C but point Z is further away to where you want it, so buying mineral X at point C is cheaper overall. Good balancing system so that one mineral (or whatever it is) won't be gathered in just one place all the time

4.)No levels... this of course is predicated on the whole real time survival and character age thing... Again, I consider it unfair. Some Otaku is gonna bury us all if this is the case.

And again, it is not dependent on the amount of time you spend ingame.

5.) Single server with totally open full loot PvP... Why restrict yourself to a single server? some people don't WANT 100% free-for-all PvP... as you said, bounty systems don't work... and they won't. They barely work IRL, why should they work online? And full loot... you're a flippin' masochist aren't ya?

this has been discussed heavily on several threads and I have to agree with you somewhat. In eve you are protected in 0.5 space and up, the CONCORD will come and kill those who killed you but I hardly think that some rangers are going to show up every time you get killed in some kind of high security area in the wasteland... So I don't think that full loot will work as good in fallout online as it does in EVE.

6.) Player owned structures that can be burned down, looted for stored equipment (raidable) and that are vulnerable even when the player owning them isn't around... Well, if you want your home and business burned down, you have that right I guess.

This have also been discussed on some threads. My idea is getting mercenaries. BUT buildings shouldn't just be raidable/burnable/lootable. Buildings are places where you want to keep your stuff safe, BUT if you are in a gang and your gang is in war with another gang THEN the other gang should be able to see your base of operation (not the this is the gang base, NOT the personal base where you might store your personal stuff)

removed your annoying color

Lol...Taking down somones guild/clan building isn't some simple task. They did it in other games I'm sure they could figure it out in this one. It's also interest how when this subject is brought up people like you always say "why would I want my building destroyed etc..." Why not think "this is great, now i can go burn down someones guild house" Plus I dont think it would just be somones random house. It would be a whole guild hall...the whole guild would be alerted during an attack on their building. Also it would be guarded by NPC that you buy to go along with the guild house. This would be a very very difficult task to drop someones guild house. As it should be considering it takes a lot of resources and money to build one.

Excuse me for my use of the word guild, I'm sure it would be called something else in this game.

apples and oranges, really. EVE is an industry and economics simulation backed by a space combat premise, with micromanagement as a chief gameplay element. it has a very narrow audience and is a love-it or hate-it kind of game.

From what we can tell so far, PV13 is a combat/exploration/factions/questing game, with a main focus on combat. The devs have stated:

-a desire to *not* have a big learning curve (like EVE)
-referred to WoW as the current industry standard
-while not seeking to clone any MMO's gameplay, they're willing to incorporate some of the established gameplay elements that just work the best for the MMO format
-they seek to make the best game possible, one that they'd want to play
-according to Chris: "I tried EVE for about 1 hour and couldn't hack it."

(incidentally, I played EVE for about a year before coming to a similar conclusion...)

EvE is terrible,
didn't ever play it longer then 2 weeks, It's such a drag.
Waiting for 2 months for a skill is no fun at all, especially for more hardcoe gamers. Frank "Not even cockroaches kill their own species Fred".
Fred "Well Frank, Cockroaches can't carry guns, now can they".

Um, I don't play EVE anymore but I don't remember any skills taking 2 months to train. Hyperbole much?

And, I don't know how much of EVE the devs like, etc. But the economic part is definitely worth including. Dynamic player driven systems are always better than hackneyed standard WOW drivel.

If WOW is considered the industry standard then I guess COD MW2 on PC is also, and that game stinks. Any game that tries to be like WOW shouldn't be purchased.

keep in mind that this is your personal opinion and do please posts that are correct. I highly doubt that there are any skills for you that took 2 months to read after just 2 weeks, there ARE of coarse skills that take extremely long to read but those skills are also extremely good.

And the game requires lots of tactical decisions, its not like you can just fit a Raven (bs) with a bunch of weapons (hyay dps) and no real tank and then think that you can start killing stuff, you will probably get killed by 1 frigate and 2 BC, 1 that keeps disrupting your targetingsystem/keeping you from warping and the other 2 will probably just fly around mowing down your shield/tank/hull, if you didnt put up a stable and good tank.

EVE just have a longer learning curve than wow (and requires a bit more braincells THERE I SAID IT!)

Um, I don't play EVE anymore but I don't remember any skills taking 2 months to train. Hyperbole much?

Go and play it, then try to go for black widow asap, yes 2 months.

If you could try and explain to me also, what's so fun about having a goal, a playstyle you enjoy, and then having to waste so much precious time to actually achieve it, having to go trough mission after mission (a drag) to get the money required for it, and afterwards, you still have to wait long before you can actually enjoy (hopefully) this goal you're trying to achieve.

Also, there's such an insane gap between the oldschool players and new players looking around the corner that it would probably take you atleast 3-4 months before you can even think about enjoying pvp AND actually standing a chance. (which in my opinion is quite the nessecity to enjoy pvp) it completely nullifies the players skill level and trades it in for tactics, planning. Who has the smarter skills, build, ship, guns and in a way, who's playing the longest.

It's great if you like that sort of thing, but I see very little place for it in a Fallout universe.

I just want to blow stuff up, do things with my friends, and PvP. Easy skill gain is something that greatly enhances this for new players and I doubt it will have a negative effect on the game. Not to mention it would also make it - better for casual players - and the skill gap between oldschool and newschool stays small.

I'd more rather have a 'skill cap' (500 points total max) so you can only max out a certain set of skills. Keeps the game diverse, keeps it fun, non-repeating. You can try out all different stuff and not get bored.

EVE just have a longer learning curve than wow (and requires a bit more braincells THERE I SAID IT!)

So you're assuming that because I didn't like the game and found it a drag, I lack in braincells?
"Assumptions are the mother of all fvck-ups". (there I said it)

Eitherway, I tought this was a discussion, so ye, you post,... opinions,... right? And my opinion is that an EvE/Fallout hybrid would be terrible. And all your rambling about what EvE is all about are exactly all the things I dislike about EvE.

And the game requires lots of tactical decisions

Which Fallout did you enjoy most.
1, 2 or 'TACTICS'.

Personally, 1 and 2. Tactics I played till at some point it became a drag..... it was good but in my opinion it lacked story flavour and diversity (compared to 1 and 2).

And I think a lot of people will agree with me on this one.

So EvE/Fallout hybrid get's a big NO from me. Frank "Not even cockroaches kill their own species Fred".
Fred "Well Frank, Cockroaches can't carry guns, now can they".

I enjoyed tactics a lot from the gameplay view but i liked f1,2 more because of the story.

And you do need to do a lot of tactical decisions in eve and there is a big and deep story in eve and yes you do need to spend some time getting into the game, but you can just jump in and do pvp right from the start, there are lots of pvp corps that give away free ships. beleiving that you have to wait 3-4 months before playing the game is bullshit, do some research before posting, join a noobcorp, do some pvp with another noobcorp (red vs blue is great for that, lots of players who have never done any pvp that gets to just jump right in)

If you could try and explain to me also, what's so fun about having a goal, a playstyle you enjoy, and then having to waste so much precious time to actually achieve it, having to go trough mission after mission (a drag) to get the money required for it, and afterwards, you still have to wait long before you can actually enjoy (hopefully) this goal you're trying to achieve.

You dont have to do missions, you can be a miner or a trader, or a scammer perhaps, or just a pirate, all of those can get lots of money and you dont have to grind for xp for hourse like in most (almost all) mmo's.

Also, there's such an insane gap between the oldschool players and new players looking around the corner that it would probably take you atleast 3-4 months before you can even think about enjoying pvp AND actually standing a chance.

And there is no gap between oldschool players and new players in other mmo's? So you can make a new char in Lotro, wow, war and just go kill anyone you want without playing before, or lvling up (hyay grinding). All games require lots of playing before you can even start to go against the big boys. Also, if you want noob pvp in eve, just join noob pvp corporation.

It doesnt take long to read some basic skills and if you want money just grind some missions (like you do in all mmo's so that kinda an invalid argument to call the game bad) and get money. After a while (not that long actually, depending on how much you play you could very well be able to do them after a month) you should be able to do l4 missions and get shitload of money.

I just want to blow stuff up, do things with my friends, and PvP. Easy skill gain is something that greatly enhances this for new players

Start a noobcorp, go pvp and pve with your friends, gz. Skill gain is extremely fast in the beginning BUT if you want to be really really really good at something it will take time and there are skills and other stuff that will decrease the skills learning time. Still mastering a frigate takes like.. no time...

I'd more rather have a 'skill cap' (500 points total max) so you can only max out a certain set of skills. Keeps the game diverse, keeps it fun, non-repeating. You can try out all different stuff and not get bored.

There is a skill cap in eve, lvl5 is max for all skills, there is just a lot of different skills that will let you get better at certain things. The game is diverse as frikkin hell and you can try out many different play stiles and you hardly get bored if you like eve gameplay, if you dont like eve gameplay just dont play it.. its as easy as that.

//edit - I can add that wow have very good instance system and I am sure that its fun as hell (havnt played wow that much so I do not dare to say anything special) running around with friends, doing quests/instances/boss battles and I'd like fallout online to have instance system as well, they are fun But thats like the only part I like about wow, so 'nuff said.

So you're assuming that because I didn't like the game and found it a drag, I lack in braincells?
"Assumptions are the mother of all fvck-ups". (there I said it)

no, I didnt say that, you just don't like the gameplay thats it, but I do have to say that EVE's average age 2006 was 27, just... yea...

ALSO this is a fun link
Read it a bit, it's about what not to expect from eve

OOOH and this is fun as well:

Also, there's such an insane gap between the oldschool players and new players looking around the corner that it would probably take you atleast 3-4 months before you can even think about enjoying pvp AND actually standing a chance.

From the link I gave you:
"The idea that a player with more skill points or more expensive ships and modules is not necessarily going to perform better at a given task can be a little counter-intuitive.

The thing to remember here is that a player can only specialise so far in any one area as there's are only so many skills which will affect any given ship or task. When I'm flying a Gallente Thorax, for example, all my skills in electronic warfare, missiles, industry and a dozen other categories aren't being used. A new player who has specialised in flying the Thorax could match my skills in the ship within just a few months of starting. If you want to catch up to the veterans, specialisation is definitely the name of the game."
yes it says a few months, but your argument is kind of stupid, its like saying: WoW svcks because you can't pvp against a oldschooler that's been playing for 3 years... I say that you can pvp against oldschoolers faster in EVE than in most mmo's, so gz for that. And you can become a tackler in 2 days and join a pvp corp that gives out free ships... or IF you want to buy a frigate with equipment yourself, its so extremely cheap you can get money for it veeery fast, hell i think people can give you that amount of money.

and new players can fight alongside veterans as a useful part of PvP squads.

You dont have to do missions, you can be a miner or a trader, or a scammer perhaps, or just a pirate, all of those can get lots of money and you dont have to grind for xp for hourse like in most (almost all) mmo's.

Also, there's such an insane gap between the oldschool players and new players looking around the corner that it would probably take you atleast 3-4 months before you can even think about enjoying pvp AND actually standing a chance.

And there is no gap between oldschool players and new players in other mmo's? So you can make a new char in Lotro, wow, war and just go kill anyone you want without playing before, or lvling up (hyay grinding). All games require lots of playing before you can even start to go against the big boys. Also, if you want noob pvp in eve, just join noob pvp corporation.

It doesnt take long to read some basic skills and if you want money just grind some missions (like you do in all mmo's so that kinda an invalid argument to call the game bad) and get money. After a while (not that long actually, depending on how much you play you could very well be able to do them after a month) you should be able to do l4 missions and get shitload of money.

I just want to blow stuff up, do things with my friends, and PvP. Easy skill gain is something that greatly enhances this for new players

Start a noobcorp, go pvp and pve with your friends, gz. Skill gain is extremely fast in the beginning BUT if you want to be really really really good at something it will take time and there are skills and other stuff that will decrease the skills learning time. Still mastering a frigate takes like.. no time...

I'd more rather have a 'skill cap' (500 points total max) so you can only max out a certain set of skills. Keeps the game diverse, keeps it fun, non-repeating. You can try out all different stuff and not get bored.

There is a skill cap in eve, lvl5 is max for all skills, there is just a lot of different skills that will let you get better at certain things. The game is diverse as frikkin hell and you can try out many different play stiles and you hardly get bored if you like eve gameplay, if you dont like eve gameplay just dont play it.. its as easy as that.

//edit - I can add that wow have very good instance system and I am sure that its fun as hell (havnt played wow that much so I do not dare to say anything special) running around with friends, doing quests/instances/boss battles and I'd like fallout online to have instance system as well, they are fun But thats like the only part I like about wow, so 'nuff said.

So you're assuming that because I didn't like the game and found it a drag, I lack in braincells?
"Assumptions are the mother of all fvck-ups". (there I said it)

no, I didnt say that, you just don't like the gameplay thats it, but I do have to say that EVE's average age 2006 was 27, just... yea...

ALSO this is a fun link
Read it a bit, it's about what not to expect from eve

OOOH and this is fun as well:

Also, there's such an insane gap between the oldschool players and new players looking around the corner that it would probably take you atleast 3-4 months before you can even think about enjoying pvp AND actually standing a chance.

From the link I gave you:
"The idea that a player with more skill points or more expensive ships and modules is not necessarily going to perform better at a given task can be a little counter-intuitive.

The thing to remember here is that a player can only specialise so far in any one area as there's are only so many skills which will affect any given ship or task. When I'm flying a Gallente Thorax, for example, all my skills in electronic warfare, missiles, industry and a dozen other categories aren't being used. A new player who has specialised in flying the Thorax could match my skills in the ship within just a few months of starting. If you want to catch up to the veterans, specialisation is definitely the name of the game."
yes it says a few months, but your argument is kind of stupid, its like saying: WoW svcks because you can't pvp against a oldschooler that's been playing for 3 years... I say that you can pvp against oldschoolers faster in EVE than in most mmo's, so gz for that. And you can become a tackler in 2 days and join a pvp corp that gives out free ships... or IF you want to buy a frigate with equipment yourself, its so extremely cheap you can get money for it veeery fast, hell i think people can give you that amount of money.

and new players can fight alongside veterans as a useful part of PvP squads.

I think it's great that you like EvE and all that, and that for some weird reason you feel the urge to defend it, but honestly I stopped after about the 9th sentence of you trying to explain to me why EvE -IS- great.

I would kindly like to ask you to stop this,.. whatever this is what you're trying to do, and I would appreciate it if you could accept the simple fact that

I -
do not -
like -
EvE

So if we could get back on the topic that would be great.

After all this forum is about Project V13 - a.k.a. Fallout Online and not freaking EvE...........

In excempt this one topic where someone tought it would be awesome if some EvE aspects would be part of Fallout. I disagree. I explained why, now you try and explain us why you think it would be cool instead of I dno... going like, you're wrong EvE is cool yadayada. That's just your opinion.
Frank "Not even cockroaches kill their own species Fred".
Fred "Well Frank, Cockroaches can't carry guns, now can they".

I'm just correcting all the things you said, thats all, you said a lot of things that where not very true about eve.

And that reply was not to tell anyone how great eve is and bla bla bla, I don't think I even wrote about how great eve is, maybe this counts:
The game is diverse as frikkin hell and you can try out many different play stiles and you hardly get bored if you like eve gameplay
So I didn't even once say that EVE is cool anywhere, thats your assumption, hmm how did you put it:

"Assumptions are the mother of all fvck-ups".

And yes I do want to get back on topic, I just don't like it when people write about stuff they don't really know anything about in a way that it seems they know everything about it. AND AS I SAID IN MY GIGANTIC POST WITH RED LETTERS!
if you dont like eve gameplay just dont play it.. its as easy as that.

And to get back on topic: No, I don't think V13 can be an EVE clone, but there are some things that can be adopted from eve, for one thing: the playerbased economy in eve is a real piece of art, lots of things to be learned from other games, as I said: wow instances are fun as well.