5th installment in the series, hoping to generate more debate, more thought and hopefully a big pile of people that want to start the MMO with a bunch of enthusiasm!

In this installment I'm going to look at items, created, looted, won or otherwise. As well as ways to make those items appear a bit more 'interesting' in their introduction, use and evolution. Finding that 'rusty axe!' might be fun the first 15 times, but by time 4,234,892 it turns into -> "I gazed with excitement as I opened the enemy backpack, having battled for almost 4 hours on this field against horrors and tech too terrible to image I expected something amazing...... And all I got was a rusty axe?!??!!? ....... I hate this *@$!ing game!!!!"

We've ALL been there, we've all fought some creature or robot and expected heck SOMETHING good to fall only to feel like we got slapped in the face after wards. I'm not saying all items or entire kits should drop, but a rusty axe from a missle shoot, and lazer beam pewing robot? .... REALLY???

So lets get into it shall we?

First I'll go into the different classes of items for a quick review.

1. Grey items - junk items, their good to sell to a vendor and/or melt down.
2. White items - great when your just starting off, or need an item to repair your item your currently using.
3. Named/First Tier items - a little bit better then white items, have stats like +2% rate of fire or +1 damage per hit.
4. Rare items/Second Tier items - a bit better then named, has pretty decent stats usually adding to 3 to 4 different attributes or such (example +3 to damage, +10% rate of fire, +10% resistance)
5. Unique items/3rd Tier items - getting one of these should truly be a unique experience, has everything a rare item does but gives some 'global' item boost to all your other items or a rare stat that never is usually effected (Example +all armor gains +5% to AC, all weapons can fire 10% faster, or +10% to experience per kill!)
6. Piecemeal set items/tier 4 - These are items that as they progressivily find the other parts of the set, they get better. (Example, Raider Spiked armor, Raider Helmet, Raider Shotgun and Raider Boots 2 pieces = +4% protection, 3 pieces = 8% protection, all 4 pieces = 20% protection + 10% rate of fire for shotguns, +5% damage per shotgun hit)
7. Full sets/tier 5 - These are everything except the weapon(s) and maybe rings/necklaces/etc. So it could be (Example, Brotherhood of steel Hood, BOS Chestplate, BOS Pants, BOS Boots, BOS gloves, BOS Arm guards, BOS underwear, and BOS jockstrap. Yet the goggles, necklace, rings, watch, socks, belt and weapons can be anything that the player decides to give them a feeling of choice. The stats gain an extra stats for every odd numbered piece past 1, so on 3, 5, 7 etc etc items gain additional stats that really drive players to collect the entire set.
8. Faction sets - These are very basic sets, which can be used and abused semi often since their so common, for the Fuzzy Bunny's for example it might be a Light pink leather jack, Light pink helmet with bunny ears, 10mm Semi auto (with pink rabbit foot keyring hanging off the grip!) and Pink Belt with fuzzy cotton tail on the back side (+1% running speed!) These aren't incredible stats, but their representative of their faction and allow players to have something that's the start of a set over just whatever garbage gear they can pick off of the starting area enemies.

9. Specialty Profession sets - not sure if these are in any other game atm, I haven't seen them so far if they are other then a single item that will give a higher % chance to success rate. There probably is, but here's how I *hope* we might see them. Say someone is a miner/prospector (probably THE most common class in all games) and he/she wants to not only extractor minerals at a high rate, but find more, and help along with the profession they've chosen. A mining 'set' might have a few different pieces but together can make a miners life a heck of a lot easier.
For example!
Mining Set
Helmet (+5% to mineral location, +5% to mineral extraction)
gloves (+5% to mineral location, +5% to mineral extraction)
pick axe/shovel combo tool (+10% to mineral extraction, +5% bonus to find rare minerals/gems)
Belt (+5% to mineral extraction, +10% to mineral carrying capacity (12 per stack over 10)
Boots (+5% to mineral location, +10% to speed while prospecting for minerals)
Set bonuses
2 pieces = -10% to mineral extraction speed
3 pieces = +20% to mineral prospecting range on surveys
4 pieces = +15% bonus to rare metals/gem find per extraction
5 pieces = all mining related activities +20% success rate (prospecting, mining, refining, surveying and rare mineral/gem find)


Something like that can be applied to any profession, any class, etc etc. People would love it, there are items you can carry around with you that give you a bonuses or two. But no sets that would do so, this would allow you to be seen by others in the wastes or cities wearing this gear and they'd know, at the very least, that your doing something towards this profession if not making the world look a bit more realistic.


Sets role in the world
Sets are powerful, there is no denying that, they are also some of the most sought after items since they make your character 'look' better. I just ask that they are build able as well as drop able from the game, too many games have items that have high drop rates but have no ability whatsoever to be crafted by players. This make players feel useless as crafters as their items are only used to get other players a chance to GET those items and then those items are discarded. Please don't allow that to happen here, a good set should be treasured, even passed along to others in it's completed form to help a tribemate or friend. But never should they be 'junk that no one builds anymore' because level 1,000 gear drops from the el MUCHO HELL-O BUNNY-O-DOOM-IN-A-BOX that everyone runs over and over.

Sets being carried around
This is another problem I'd like to make sure people are aware of. Sets take up alot of room, either in weight or in 'bag slots'. If FOOL takes the route of encouraging players to have many sets (I hope they do) please try to find a way to make it not take up 95% of our inventories (which I expect to be limited).

Now lets switch from armor over to more one use items

Consumables & you!
Some items have only a single use, but might work better if coupled with a piece of technology that is native to the region where the item was made.

For instance, Brotherhood of steel Ammo might do 5% more damage per round if fired from a Brotherhood of steel Machine gun. Yet these effects stack with each other.
Example.
B.O.S. Machine gun vrs regular Machine gun 40 damage per cycle vrs 35 damage per cycle
B.O.S. Machine gun ammo vrs regular Machine gun ammo 4 damage per cycle vrs 3.5 damage per cycle
B.O.S Machine gun and B.O.S ammo combined = 40 damage, + 4 damage for 5 round burst = 20 + 40 = 60, 60 +5% = 63 per cycle.

Together the items are much better, alone their still great weapons, but together their amazing.

Other items can fall into these categories:
Stim packs and Vault city tech
Robotics and RoboTec Bots
Plasma weaponry and Enclave
Raiders and hand to hand weapons
etc etc.

These are just suggestions, and one thing that might be a good way track things, allow players to buy 'limited licenses' to make faction items.
For ammo say 10,000 rounds of Brotherhood of steel 5.52mm rounds can be made off of a set of plans before the license is expired and needs to be renewed. This would give reasons for players to make trips to markets to obtain new licenses and give the game designers a way to track which items are the most popular. If they see an item with 0 purchases over a few months they know the faction should rework that item to make it more attractive to people and/or lower the costs for the license.

Both ways take money out of the economy and give a way to track what's going on.

I'll see if there is any reply before I put down more, I know these get pretty indepth(read LONG!!!) and I'm trying not to scare anyone away, I do want to get a fairly exhaustive study across however.

-Banlish

Sounds familar. Dungeon Siege

Dave Chase

Fixed that for you

Fixed that for you

Since I took sets, items and builds from about 10 MMO's I think your both a tad 'short' on that stuff, something other then a 'one liner' reply would be great but who knows, anything past a few paragraphs is hard to get people to read these days.

Gear and loot is great.

I would like to see a system where skill plays a larger role than gear.

In the hands of a master a wooden cane can be a deadly weapon that can kill or cripple numerous attackers.

Place the same cane in the hands of an inexperienced thug and it just turns into a club that breaks in half after a couple swings.

A fantastically crafted sword can be razor sharp and so well balanced its as if you have nothing in your hand. But give this sword to a novice and he is just as likely to open a gash in his own leg as that of an enemy. MMO's... MMO's never change...

Fixed that for you

Since I took sets, items and builds from about 10 MMO's I think your both a tad 'short' on that stuff, something other then a 'one liner' reply would be great but who knows, anything past a few paragraphs is hard to get people to read these days.

Micromancer,
No fixing. If you want to add please go ahead. There are several Computer games that have sets. I just mentioned one of many that I know of.

Banlish,
I did read it all. And since you are attempting to talk to the developers, I haven't commented on most of your posts.

I don't play a lot of MMO games. Most are the same other than the theme or imagery.
Plus I do realize that the majority of what you have posted is gathered, tinkered, and adjusted from other games. Especially when you talk about swords with special powers and +/- numbers.

The (currently) 5 threads you have started are interesting for brainstorming and yet at this late a date into where I believe gamesas is, most parts have already been dicussed and decided.
Just my opinion since you asked.

Overall nice write ups and examples to support your view.

Dave Chase

personaly i am keen to see sets and items with set values fall off the face of the earth. been playing wow too long and the set values where you chase best in slot is dull as hell.

personaly what i would like to see is more like this:

start with an item class. like a rifle. now list a whole range of rifles with all differnt stats. then later rather than cool new weapons dropping off bosses upgrades and minerals and ores drop off bosses that can be used to upgrade it. i know its only a slight shift from most mmo's but at least its somthing new. the reason i would like to see this happen is so not everyone runs around with the same equipment because its best in slot and there arnt other options.

1 thing i h8 in games games as long as i saw, that items have fixed stats. i loved randomisation, only 1 mmo (if i can call it) was Diablo2 that had, this option ... it wasn't hudge just like up to 5% but still, all items, had very different values .... Who we are is but a stepping stone to what we can become

Micromancer,
No fixing. If you want to add please go ahead. There are several Computer games that have sets. I just mentioned one of many that I know of.

Banlish,
I did read it all. And since you are attempting to talk to the developers, I haven't commented on most of your posts.

I don't play a lot of MMO games. Most are the same other than the theme or imagery.
Plus I do realize that the majority of what you have posted is gathered, tinkered, and adjusted from other games. Especially when you talk about swords with special powers and +/- numbers.

The (currently) 5 threads you have started are interesting for brainstorming and yet at this late a date into where I believe gamesas is, most parts have already been dicussed and decided.
Just my opinion since you asked.

Overall nice write ups and examples to support your view.

Dave Chase

Not really just dev's I'm trying to talk to, I won't lie and say I hope a few of them don't look at these installments and say "hrm, that's not a bad thought that we could flesh out much better" but I am hoping tons of players will comment and give ideas as well, the more an idea is talked about the more the dev's might get the feedback they require to change or add something in.

K.I.S.S.

Use the Item drops like in previous fallouts: if someone is shooting you with a 9MM, they will drop a 9MM.

It would be nice to see upgrades, like in FO2. Perhaps upgrades that may part of the weapon better but give you a negative elsewhere, so as not to make super-weapons everyone "has to have".

I want to see a character who wants to be a stealthy pistol wielder be as viable as the guy in power armor lugging around a gatling laser.

As for the epic weapons so on and so forth.....I'd prefer to avoid that path, then you start down the "just like every other MMO" path, and lose me back to the classic Fallout titles at least. There are things about MMOs that are fun, but I REALLY want to see FALLOUT online, not WoW in post-apocaliptia.

As i can see, Banlish takes alot of good ideas from already published games, he do make them a bit more complex, but what about new ideas ? never seen ideas ? ofc, there would be nice to have a game who takes all the best parts out of games, and make 1 game , but it could come to big complexity , maybe even to complex, and what than ? it would be to hard to play just a few h per day or week.

i just thinks so. Who we are is but a stepping stone to what we can become

I just hope upgrading your character is NOT like Eve Online.
waiting days and days for the most minor of upgrades is horrible.

I did like the market system though.

An EVE online system without learning skills (skills that make you train other skills faster but take 3 months to full train) would be great.

Why?

Some people like me have pretty full lives, I personally run a company and contract with another for a pretty regular 70 to 80 hour work week. On top of that I have a fiance and wedding we're getting ready for, which if I'm lucky leaves me about 5 to 6 days a week for maybe, 2 hours to 3 hours of playing.

Do you think I want to be punished for having a real life? No. I'd love to be able to have my character advance SKILL WISE ONLY while I'm busy with real life so when I do login I can go shoot A lvl 5 or 6 creature instead of a few 40 to 50 hours shooting rats.

And it's a double hit because the students or unemployed that can play 40 to 80 hour weeks will shoot right to the top of the system and people like me are left in the dust. I'm NOT saying I want communism or 'everyone-is-equal' whatsoever. People that can play 40 to 80 hours a week should have TONS more loot, cash, items, etc etc. then me. However my character should keep advancing as long as I pay my subscription.

In other games I play I've been inactive for months at a time, but when I come back my character is still roughly in line with my friends who have been there all that time. Sure their much 'sharp' then me, know better tactics and usually have a good deal of cash over me. BUT I can still play with them, and with the market setup in that particular game I'm actually making more then them over that time because all my money is in the market for 3 month long stretches earning me SOMETHING compared to absolutely nothing and being able to use level 5 gear when all my friends (that are unemployed) are sitting around level 30 or whatever.

TL:DR Don't pushing players that are busy with real life and still want to play, if they want to pay for a sub, have their skills/exp increase but no free cash unless they login for market activities or PVE.

ok, seems fine

still good so far

no problems yet

i still see no problems

so far so good

oh god please no sets, please for the love of all that is holy, i hate sets

please no sets ever

armor sets are the bane of individuality in games where armor is the only thing most people see

once again, please no sets


having several tiers of individual armor qualities and rarities is fine, but please, please, please...no sets, ever *The first time I saw a Deathclaw...well, now that's a story for a different day.*

Sweet, more discussion.

Personally I think it wouldn't be bad to have sets IF there are powerful enough items that are singles or pairs that if you get them would be just as powerful. I'm not 'in love' with sets either, but a few piles of games have em so at this point I'd rather mention it and get the MMO launched then yet another awesome MMO killed before it's even born.

Whatever gamesas launches I'll buy to support, but I'd like as many as people as humanly possible to join me, hence these installments.

A lot of people want this game to actually take skill. Thing is adding stats automatically takes a bit of that away from the game. APB for example. The game claims to be a pure shooter built off of skill however they have slots on guns for chosen upgrades. Granted they only go up to 10% but the combination of some modifications allow it to be a bit more about "whos got the better gear" than "whos got the better skill".

If you take per say 10% health on an item that decreases damage by 10% also, you are looking at a guy that already has a bit over 20% advantage over a guy that has none of the above. If you think this is small go play APB for about an hour and it will be clear just how big an advantage this is. Now that is only 1 item say it was armor. So now you add 10% damage 10% speed modifier on a gun. You have successfully lowered that guy with no upgrades survival even further.

This will be a HUGE balance issue if not approached right. It also drives the community to the Best Item min/max mentality.

So how do you fix it.
Low percentages 3% max (it will feel like an upgrade but gives you very little room for spray and pray).

Have stacking percentages only utilize the best stat and others are ignored. Or group stats in family's that only 1 of them can be active. 10% health or 10% damage reduction You could choose only one that would be in effect.

Concentrate less on damage/health stats (instead of worrying about speed of fire or health given, Increase recoil reduction, Reload time or weight).

I honestly like the idea if they went a borderland route where items dropped would have a huge range of RNG for stats and said person will not always drop said item but a variation there of. Combined with a bit of Everquest where Rare spawns that maybe spawns once a week in a random location between 8 different spawns, would allow slow distribution into the market or player base, hell to take it a bit further make a few one time spawns in very tight tucked away spots that no one can (data mine) to get the one up finding. In a time of age that amazing items should be rare this makes perfect sense. I do not think every Joe should have access to the flavor of the month item because they QQ about it. It should be a bit of luck and exploration involved. Not saying these would be uber hard to kill because hey you worked to find them and that WAS the hard part or luck of the draw there of. Granted you could have rumors in npc citys that circulate ideas where to start looking but that is as far as it would go.

Sounds like a good way to stop it, the 10% honestly was just as an example not a absolute. Personally I wouldn't be against seeing only +1% on an item or even fractional percentages like 0.05%+ for xyz item. I really don't want it to be 'who can twitch faster is the best' because that isn't what drew me to fallout. Then again I hope to see gangs slamming into each other in giant firefights that have dozens of people 'dying' per battle eventually. But that might be against it too, so I dunno.

What I'm trying to recreate are the battles in Mad Max where you had the refinery attack scene, that was freaking awesome and I loved it. Hope gamesas tries to recreate that, (minus the reliance on vehicles) and lets a refinery just be one 'zone' a player nation/tribe/gang can control.

I'm not sure that I agree with this. Or at least, I think that it needs to be qualified. While it may be true that a few people want a purely 'skill' driven game, the vast majority want a game that requires just enough skill for them to succeed. It's the classic catch 22 MMO gamer's subconsciousness -- anybody who is better than me is a nerd and has no life, and anybody who is worse than me is a noob and has no skill. I'm not accusing anybody here of being like that, but that does tend to be the sort of mindset that most MMO gamers settle into. Fortunately, most of them are decent people, and try to help the "noobs", and learn from the "nerds", but at the end of the day everybody wants things balanced perfectly for them.

The key to doing this (or getting as close as possible) is always going to be an appropriate mix between gear and skill-based combat efficacy. Generally, if you make gear relatively important, and then enable more skilled players to collect that gear more quickly / efficiently, that's a good start. Beyond that it's a balancing act, but far and away the best way to shoot yourself in the foot here is to choose one extreme over the other. I do think that skill needs to be heavily emphasised, and that a defined difficulty curve be put in position. Maybe you'll sit and sigh, wishing that I were near
Then maybe you'll ask me to come back again
And maybe I'll say "Maybe"

+1
I want my character to be able to do the things I design them for, rather than being me-in-a-vaultsuit. If I make a character with max pistol skill, they should be able to hit things regardless of my cack-handed mouse skills.
Sure, player skill takes a part as I'm controlling their actions and deciding what and how to do things, but in RNG situations, I want my characters stats to be the deciding factor. I want to be able to improve them, so they get better at the things that matter to me.