PvP system was not announced yet, we don't know is there will be any loot from PC or is it will be able to steal from PC, but there are a lot of conversations about it on the board. All that conversations discovered that the community is divided in two parts: 1) - that ones who played games with full loot and love it; 2) - that ones who didn't play any games with lootable/stealable PC and fear it.
I decided to post this thread to remove all ignorances of full loot and PvP stealing.

1. Fiction: You will be killed and looted each time you leaving the safe zone. If you will stay in the safe zone - you will be pickpocketed by a thief.
Facts: Most games with full loot prevents pointless killing by marking such a players as a criminals, so you can note him from afar and hide/runaway. Safe zone guards attacks criminals on sight. Even if you are dead, there are some ways to keep your gear on your body, depending of a game setting.
Stealing mechanics of such a games turned the stealing into a risky and dangerous process. Bigger item is harder to steal and a failure marks thief as a criminal and you are free to kill (and loot) him with a help of safe zone guards. In addition, player can trap his inventory from stealing, so thief is risking his health twice. He can fail the stealing as because of lack of skill as because of trap damage. Even if he survives the trap, he becomes criminal in a crowded place what is equal to a death sentence. So looting and stealing are the extremely rare game moments because of a small number of people who is ready to become a criminal.

2. Fiction: You can loose all your gear and became unable to farm resources to restore your loss.
Facts: Most games with full loot and PvP steal has a damageable and destroyable equipment. You will inevitably loose your item, no matter looted, stolen or destroyed of usage. Basic equipment is easy to find/buy and it is suitable to farm. Equipment in such a games performs its' straight functions (armor protects, weapon damages) and do not significantly affects character statistics, so you do not need to wear top level equipment to play PvE at any level. You can keep your best gear for a special case and use more affordable for every day.

3. Fiction: You can loose an epic-super-mega item, which you have farmed by months. And that will be a grief.
Fact: You can loose an epic-super-mega item, which you have farmed by months if you will be stupid enough to splurge it without a power to keep it in hand. And that will be a greatest grief, but it will make you cleverer.
After all, there may be a special items (gear locks) which are binding a gear to your body and making it unavailable to loot from you or extending a time required to do it. So you may insure yourself from loosing especially precious items.

4. Fiction: Games with full loot and PvP stealing are commercially unsuccessful.
Fact: Some games are successful, some - not. It depends a large number of reasons, and game mechanics is not the major one.

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A stealing mechanics feature.
There is a problem with so called "naked thieves". They risk nothing trying to steal something.
I got a solution of this problem:
It is not enough to snatch something from the other's pocket. You must put the snatched into your pocket making no suspicions. But how can you hide something on your body if you have no clothes? So the rule is coming:
After the successful steal attempt there is a period of time (about 10 seconds, depending on skill and perks) when the thief is "hiding" the stolen item on himself. In this period there is a chance that somebody will note this suspicious actions and recognize the thief. This chance depends of the weight of stolen and raises if the thief (or victim) steps away before he hide the stolen. Certain clothes are lowering this chance and their effectiveness depends of their quality, having no clothes sets this chance to zero. The better items you wear - the more you can steal.

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So, I realized a necessity of complete looting and stealing flagged-system conception. No doubt, there will be grammatical and other mistakes, which are lowering the understandability of the text. Please, if there will be a weird places - post me a PM and I will edit that place.

1. Types of characters.
All characters divides into three types:
1) Normal characters. It is a basic condition of any PC or friendly NPC. White nickname (for example)
2) Criminal. It is a character, breaking a law, but didn't cause any harm. Orange nickname
3) Outlaw. It is a character, who have killed a normal PC or normal NPC. Bloody-red nickname

2. How to became any type of character.
1) Normal: to register and start to play.
2) Criminal: to attack a normal PC or normal NPC (if a target dies, all the criminals attacked it, becomes an outlaw), to fail a stealing attempt or fail to hide the stolen on yourself, to ignore the guard orders not to sneak or loot killed normal PC/NPC in the guarded zone, to attempt a break into a house (if it they will be) in a sight of normal PC or NPC.
3) Outlaw: To kill a normal PC or normal NPC, to loot a normal PC or normal NPC in the guarded zone, to break into anybody house (if it they will be) in a sight of normal PC or NPC.

3. How to kill somebody avoiding to become an outlaw
1) To kill a criminal
2) To kill an outlaw
3) To kill somebody in a clan war.
Clan war mechanics: clan A (group of players) claim a war to a clan B. Since that moment all members of the clan A can kill members of a clan B without a risk to become a criminal or outlaw. They are marked as a criminals for each other, but for the other players all of them stay normal. Clan war may be ended by an opposite decision of both sides.
4) To kill somebody in a PvP quest
PvP quests mechanics: a player can take a quest on the base of any faction and be transported to a specific location, where will be another players, who has taken the same quest from the same faction and from the hostile factions. Generally, it works like a classic WoW_battleground/WAR_scenario, but it may take place not in the instance.
5) To invite somebody into a duel.
Duel mechanics:
Before the duel starts, the player may choose the rules of a duel: a duel for fun(honor/nothing) or a "winner takes all". This rules are noticeably displayed in the invitation.
Duel invitation may be sent and accepted from 10-15 meters (numbers may be tuned), otherwise the player see a message: "It is too close/far for a fair duel". A player who is inviting somebody stands in a defiant pose (immobilized, consider it as a channeling spell ) and pointing by a finger to an invited player until the invitation is accepted. Any damage caused to an inviting player breaks the invitation. After the invitation is accepted, both players stands immobilized and a tumbleweed (or a similar object depending of the environment) flies between them. After a 2-3 seconds the tumbleweed touches the ground and the duel begins. Player defeated in the duel do not dies, but falls on the ground with 1 HP for a 30 seconds and the winner may loot him if there were such a rule.

4. How to cleanse yourself from criminal/outlaw status
1) Normal: Keep going, stay away of a trouble
2) Criminal:
-a) Die once from a PC or guard.
-b) Spent a period of time (game day or 2-3 hours) without any criminal actions
-c) Kill an outlaw
3) Outlaw:
-a) Kill X outlaw PCs (X=10-20 etc.)
-b) Kill 2*X criminal PCs
-c) Kill 20*X Outlaw NPCs of same level or higher without help
-d) Kill 40*X criminal NPCs of same level or higher without help

PS
Excuse my bad English... I am a Russian bear, it's hard to type with claws.

No, it isn't divided into two groups.

And certainly not a set of two groups which so obviously supports this game having it, like outlined in your post.

finally, this needs to come out I agree with this in total. Full loot doesn't have to be bad, it all depends on how the game handles it.

3. Fiction: You can loose an epic-super-mega item, which you have farmed by months. And that will be a grief.
Fact: You can loose an epic-super-mega item, which you have farmed by months if you will be stupid enough to splurge it without a power to keep it in hand. And that will be a greatest grief, but it will make y

or you can kill someone that also has a epic-super-mega item and take it if you get the chance

Epic eq is meant for special occasions, like in a pve instance, clan pvp where it will mean something or somewhere you know its safe to use it, not when running around a bit everywhere just to brag about it or something.

//still i'm more into "innocent" people doesn't have to lose it all, just a bit, while flagged pvp:ers will lose it all if the are killed.

MOST as in barely one successful game which allows this(arguable if its success is because of the above feature ) with MOST attempts of this idea failing miserably, because its sounds nice but it fails in the implementation level unable to be translate to fun.
even in this old game which managed to survive, MOST of the ppl dont ever ever leave the high security zone, sometimes for years, making this concept of fighting in PVP full lot into a "minigame".

which is the equivalent of FO world limited to vault city area, NCR and san francisco area.


but why do i recycle the same answer that was given countless of times, on the topic.
especially when chris already stated how the game will address PvP.

so to set this thread apart from the other plead threads here is zero punctuation(for those who like his style) summery on Eve Online which has a similar system.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/208-Eve-Online

aww you cant let yahtzee do the talking he trashes almost every game he plays (BUT I do love all his videos xD as well as unskippable ^^) I'm almost 100% certain that if he would do a fallout 1,2 review he would probably grind it so much the atoms would split causing a chain reaction which would destroy the entire planet, which is the cause to why he haven't done a fallout 1,2 review.

he did one on FO3 iirc

yup but thats not the same thing :/ the games got totally different gameplay, stories (but I must say that yahtzee mostly care about gameplay more than story it seems) and mechanics etc.

I've played full-loot pvp games and hated them, I've played partial-loot pvp games, full-loot in limited zones, no pvp, pvp specific zones.
I hated Halaa in Burning Crusade, but came to love Wintergrasp in WotLK.
Does that make me a 1, or a 2?

HES A HYBRID! KILLS HIM! KILLS HIM WITH FIRE!!!

Let's hope there's a system that allows it!

None of your fictions are completely false, and none of your facts are facts at all.

I've played full-loot pvp games and hated them, I've played partial-loot pvp games, full-loot in limited zones, no pvp, pvp specific zones.
I hated Halaa in Burning Crusade, but came to love Wintergrasp in WotLK.
Does that make me a 1, or a 2?That makes you unique
Proof or pvssyrbox Excuse my bad English... I am a Russian bear, it's hard to type with claws.

matter of opinion

considering how ppl rage when they get killed in games like wow at any point... i wouldnt dare to kill some 15 year old acne faced psycho, make him lose a precious item he's been grinding for 4 months cause chances are big he and 12 of his buddies will be knockin on my door :p full loot on a special server is ok as long as its not forced on all of them imo.

oh and halaa did svck! =) In gaming terms... Life's a die, then you bich.

Proof or pvssyrbox



some? more like very little are successful and most are not
or more exactly only one game is successful, eve onilne which has not much competition in the SCI FI genre (the smallest one barely few percent compared to fantasy) with 2 specific settings the one shard model and the free "expentions" and lastly target a niche community, who do not play but work... (its like making a game for all the WOW gold miners)

i can continue but i really dont want to wait for another one of your pitches + rant.

Show me the numbers. How many are successful and how many are not? And with names, if it ispossible.
Rant? My English is not good enough for a rant. Do you dislike me? I do my best.
I wonder when will you step from an unfounded statements and say something concrete. Excuse my bad English... I am a Russian bear, it's hard to type with claws.

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/1m-12m.png
http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/150k-1m.png
http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/40k-150k.png

by the power of the mighty google (took me 20seconds)

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/1m-12m.png
http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/150k-1m.png
http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/40k-150k.png

by the power of the mighty google (took me 20seconds)
So, let's see what do we have here.
Granny Ultima Online for the last 13 years keeps about a 40% of it's maximal population. 100k subscriptions - it's not so bad, taking into consideration the obsolete graphic.
Grown younger Eve lives and it's population still grows up. Even WoW haven't influenced on it! The last fact is the most important because after 2005-2006 most games have lost the lion's share of their population. Much more then UO, and most of them have no player loot.
I do not know, what did you want to prove by this graphics, but you just have proved my words
Maybe if you spent more then 20 seconds to read, you won't post them

PS I don't see the Darkfall. It will be interesting to see it's progress. Excuse my bad English... I am a Russian bear, it's hard to type with claws.

i dont know maybe you should read my previous post or try to think a little more before you comment on that data, instead of bending realty to what you belief.


unlike some ppl when i post something i base it on some data, especially when i try to pass my conclusions as facts.
and yes it took me 20 seconds to find a set of data to support my conclusions, which is more than some other lazy pvssyr boxer did.

Significantly. But what does that mean? That the WoW get 12kk subscribers? I knew it without your diagrams. And that's not a reason to copy it. No one from all WoW-like games haven't got any success. Because it's not enough to make a game like Blizzard made, it's necessary to support the game like Blizzard do. That is the secret of WoW popularity: not a game itself (it is primitive and obsolete) but the game evolution. Excuse my bad English... I am a Russian bear, it's hard to type with claws.