I've been playing MMORPG's since about a year or so after the original Everquest came out. I have seen so many games with great potential fall apart. Being a huge fan of Fallout I really hope this game doesn't go the way of the dodo. I've seen another post like this one but I decided to throw my 2 cent in on what it takes to make a successful MMORPG.

1. Performance on a Wide Range of PCs

One of the biggest reasons World of Warcraft is so successful is because it can run on just about any PC out there that came out since 2004. Not everyone can afford 600 dollar video cards and 8gb of ram and Blizzard knew this right from the start. This doesn't mean the game can't look great, just make it very scalable. The more PCs a game can run on, the more potential customers.

2. Grouping Is Not Always The Way to Go

I have seen so many MMOs out there that try to force you to group with other players for everything. I hate to say this but despite the 2 M's in MMORPG standing for Massively and Multiplayer, people love the ability to tackle things solo as well. I hate to cite World of Warcraft again but they are very successful because they cater to not just the social butterflies but to the loners as well. Like I said earlier, the more people you cater too the bigger your potential customer base. This doesn't mean you have to make the entire game soloabe. This just means that, espeically for leveling, do not force people to group. Give them options. Give them ways to progress buth during leveling and at endgame that are friendly to both groupies and soloers.

3. Progression

There were some MMO's that came out that could have been amazing had they allowed players to progress a little bit easier. While I don't expect to hit max level in a day or even a week I woud like to at least feel like there is an end in sight. Now being an older MMO player I know that leveling is way faster than it used to be. I remember taking almost 3 months to get to max level in original EQ. However lets face it, EQ svcks by todays standards, and anyone still playing it doing so simply because they fear change, can't play anything else, or simply refuse to leave all their work.

4. Endgame

Just because a player hits max level this doesn't mean its time to throw in the towel, and too many mmo's don't understand this concept. They think that little or no endgame content is ok because players will "just level alts". This just isn't the case. When I get to the max level you better be darned sure theres things waiting for me to do, or I will be cancelling and moving on before long. Too many games out there were great during the leveling process but then fell apart at the endgame. This doesn't mean every game needs to follow the strategy of instance/gear/harder instance/gear/raid/gear/harder raid/gear that WoW does. Be creative, there are solutions.

5. PvP

This is the one topic I can't speak much about because I really and truly can't stand it. I will say this though. DO NOT FORCE IT ON PEOPLE OR YOUR GAME WILL FAIL. To many games have tried to force players into pvpo in one way or another and for the vast amount of people that hate it you are forcing them to play something they don't want to. This is a recipe for disaster. One more time I will use WoW as an example. This is one game that does pvp right. It is entirely optional, but very satisfying for those that choose it.

6. Launch

The launch of a new mmo can literally be the make it or break it point. If a game is released extremely buggy and missing half it's features people are not going to give it a second look. Final Fantasy 14 is a perfect example of this. That could've been agreat game if it was actually working right. People do not care if you will have that new feature up and running in a later patch or that game crashing bug patched 3 weeks down the road, they will be gone by then and you have just lost money. On this same subject, if you release a game before it is ready, especially in this genre, it will fail. Plain and simple. I cannot express this point clear enough.

7. Advertising

It doesn't matter how good your game is if people don't know it exists. You cannot rely simply on word of mouth for a game to spread. You need to be in people faces with it, constantly. Word of mouth is a powerful thing, but so is having that advertisemant during your favorite television show and on your morning homepage. Many great game has failed simply because it wasn't advertised.

8. Standing Out In the Crowd

Any new game coming out in this genre is going to have to be different toeven put a dent into the behemoth that is WoW. Not to mention the bajillion other mmorpgs that have come out. This game has one thing going for it already, it is Fallout. Use this, build on it. Make this game feel like Fallout and not some cookie cutter mmorpg that takes a 10 year old game model and changes a few things. You have the tools now use them.


These are the main things I can think of off the top of my head. If you guys can just keep these few points in mind when making this game you will succeed. I guarantee it. I also want to throw out that I am an experienced beta tester with very good bug hunting and reporting skills, and I would love a chance to test this one. Hint hint lol..... Seriously though guys I can't wait to see what you come up with!!

Allow me to disagree on two points. Nice post, by the way, and if I don't comment on something, I probably agree with it.

On #2, grouping: I'd say you're wrong when you say that WoW caters to 'social butterflies'. I played WoW years ago, and have played similar MMORPGs. I know you probably are the type that solos until endgame or until a dungeon, so let me tell you what it's like for people who want to group and just do quests:

I sit in the LFG channel, asking to do some low-mid level questing, I ask individuals... and the answer is always (95% of the time:) "You can solo that quest, y'know. No point in grouping at this level."

That pretty much sums up my experience with solo-friendly MMOs. This is why I love City of Heroes and like DDO, because in a gaming community where you can solo, everyone will. There aren't enough of us who like to group; enough to keep a couple MMOs running when we're left to our own devices, but not enough to play amongst masses of solo-players. I occasionally got into a fun group on WoW, but most of the time I was turned down in favor of solo-play, and it was frustrating enough for me to exit the game and eventually end my subscription.

gamesas can either make an online solo game, a multiplayer game, or make two games, but in my experience you can't combine the two successfully.

And yes, I know about WoW endgame and raids. I don't join clans or guilds, and if I do, not for those reasons. I want to group up with 3-5 other players, all around the same level, and do quests. That's not impossible, I did it all the time in City of Heroes and DDO.

And #8, a small disagreement on phrasing I think. We shouldn't encourage new MMOs to be 'WoW killers" or "WoW denters" even. There's a large enough market for 'alternate' MMOs, and enough people who wants something new and different. You don't compete with WoW, you mop up the players who are sick of WoW. There's no other way to play this.

I don't know how long ago you cancelled your sub on WoW but they have a LFG system built right into the game now that automatically pairs you with people if you wish. This works both for quests and dungeons, while leveling and endgame. You can even group with people not on your server.

My brother plays WoW and he does nothing but group and he has been playing since 2005. As long as you join a guild there will always be people do level with. Plain and simple. It all comes down to time. If someone has to spend time looking for a group, or just get it done by themselves in 1/10th of the time, which do you think they are going to choose? This is why many mmorpgs have failed. They don't give you the option of soloing content, people get bored waiting for groups, and quit. People who work 10 hours a day don't like to spend their very little freetime waiting to get things done, they like to do it.

Blizzard understands this concept, and thats why WoW is a juggernaut. They've made it easier and easier to level with each WoW expansion. They have lowered the xp needed for the 1-80 grind considerably. There is also Heirloom items you can get the have bonus xp on them, and they are tradeable among any characters on your account. With Cataclysm they added a guild leveling system that lets your characters level faster as your guild level goes up, among other rewards.


Also your take on MMORPGS is like so 5 years ago. A modern mmorpg needs to have endgame and that includes some form of large group style play. It is what keeps people coming back for more. You clearly are a social butterfly and it is your type that is a dying breed in mmorpgs. I hate to say this but 1 million subs of people who like to group is a far cry from 5 million of people who like to have a choice to do either. I am sorry you didn't personally like WoW but that fact is 12 million people currently do and it is the biggest mmorpg in the world. Their formula clearly is the formula that sells games and keeps people coming back for more. Gaming is a business. If you don't cater to the majority you will lose money plain and simple.

I personally would love to have a game cater to my personal tastes but if developers start trying to tailor their games for a single type of player they lose money. Take Warhammer Online. It would have been a great game had they not tried to focus entirely too much of the game around the people who love pvp. If they had just balanced out the game more, it would have done alot better. Look at LotRO. It they had focused more on gameplay and less on trying to tell a story to the player it would have done alot better. The fact is a game needs to be balanced in every aspect.

Also one more point I'd like to make. You say we shouldn't encourage mmorpgs to be "WoW Killers". Why not? Isn't it about time someone made a game that can knock the 800 pound gorilla off its barrel throwing scaffolding? All its going to take is the right dev team, with the right creative inspiration, the right publisher backing them, and the right license. I really don't like the who "theres room for more than one mmorpg" argument. Its like what a mother would say to their kid who just took 4th place in the spelling bee. When people say that they are almost admitting defeat before the game even comes out. Lets cheeer this game on and five it our support. Lets try to make it THE BEST mmorpg out there. We don;t ned to settle for second. Not in the Wasteland.

Guh. I'm going to try not to repeat myself, but I really can't tell if you're reading this. Maybe my points are too condensed. Maybe an anology will help. So let me make it simple for you, gecko-brains.

Billy wants to sell refreshing drinks during the hot, humid summer. Billy sees that lemonade is a popular choice, so Billy is thinking about making and selling fresh lemonade.

But let's take a look at Billy's competition, first: Most people buy from Big Lemonade inc., and they're very happy with that and don't want to buy their lemonade from someone else. Besides, Billy doesn't have a big supermarket or employees or cash like Big Lemonade inc. does.

And Billy's other competition is Lucy, who sells lemonade out of a stand in front of her house. Lucy's lemonade is too cheap to compete with, and offer basically the same stuff as Big Lemonade inc.'s lemonade.

Lucy and Big Lemonade inc both offer lemonade, and most people are happy to buy their lemonade from one or the other. So Billy decides to sell a different kind of refreshing drink for the summer: Ice tea. Nobody else is offering ice tea like Billy is, so people who enjoy iced tea buy from Billy and Billy makes money and people get their ice tea when they want it. Ice tea is better then lemonade in many people's opinion, anyway.

Key:
Billy = gamesas
Refreshing drinks for summertime = MMORPGs
Lemonade = WoW/WoW-clones
Big Lemonade inc = Blizzard Entertainment
Lucy = Free/cheaper MMO companies
Ice tea = MMORPGs with original ideas and are suitable for a alternate or 'niche' market.

Kapeesh?

I liked OneUgly's breakdown of things there lol, I think it really hit the point. but heres some thoughts I have...

About Performance: I think that the graphic requirements shouldn't be too stiff... but if its not at least semi-up to date its going to look kind of silly. I know my walmart laptop had a hard time running fallout 3 but I enjoyed the graphics enough to allow a few freezes and lags. maybe not so much on a mmo but GRAPHICS DO MATTER!

About Progression: I would like to see a game where if I can put in 1-2 hours a day I can still progress at a sustainable level. Not to say its WOW equivelent where its mindless boring stupid quests that are all meaningless and ultimatly a waste of time other than leveling, but maybe something that I don't have to devote my life to but can still level up at a respectible rate so long as i put some effort/thought into it.

About Endgame: I feel this should be one of the easiest parts for gamesas to NOT screw up on. As I dearly hope this game will be rp driven they should have no problem so long as they set up enough to do.

About Advertising: One this point I will all out say you are wrong. I belive word of mouth is the BEST way for a game like this to travel. Advertising bring people who would normally not play an mmo or game like this to the game, this means that they have never tried it before and usually have no loyalty and will switch between multiple mmo's until they find the one they want to play. Proving that eventualy if they want to play Fallout than they will make there way to it on their own. And I doubt that FAllout could compete with WOW for advertising anyways.

Everything I didn't mention I agree with. And as a last point THIS GAME HAS TO BE DIFFRENT OR IT WILL FAIL LIKE ALMOST EVERY OTHER MMO THAT HAS TRIED TO COPY WOW.

WoW made its way into both the Superbowl and the Canadian grey cup (Football). That was a moodkiller. Well I guess we're just a couple of problem solvers

Mentality like carlthecamel's is the reason World of Warcraft will never drop from its high horse. If developers don't wake up and realize you need to cater to the largest market possible then you can forget about ever even coming close to WoW's 12 million subscribers. This is a business. A business is to make money, plain and simple hands down. You may hear a developer say they are making games because they love it and this may hold true, but at the end of the day love doesn't sign paychecks.

WoW is a good game because it caters to the largest audience possible. Fallout Online could do the same thing. Let's look at come quick points. World of Warcraft was built on an existing, very popular IP. Without the Warcraft series being as popular as it was you would never have seen that huge initial infux of people. Fallout Online also has an ENORMOUS IP backing it. It doesn't matter if Bethesda owns it. The vast majorioty of gamers could care less about the politics of games. They see Fallout and they want it. This is going to result in a huge amount of initial customer base. It is going to be gamesas's job to keep these subscribers. Then let word of mouth bring in more.

Also let me address the performance isue. I've said this before but it does not matter if the game has the best graphics in the world. Graphics may get some people into the game initially but graphics don't keep people there, gameplay does. I think it was PCWorld magazine(I could be wrong) that did a study in 2008 of the amount of people who actually own mid to high end gaming rigs. Wanna take a stab in the dark as to what that number was? Less than 3% of PC owners in the US. Shocking isn't it? For those not mathematically inclined that means that 3 out of every 100 people has a gaming rig. Is it really smart for a developer to make a game that caters to 3% of the total market?

Ever wonder why those little Facebook games like Farmville and Mafia Wars have literally skyrocketed in the past few years? I can assure it's not because they won Best Graphics of the Year awards. They are popular because anyone can play them. They can be played on every PC from grandmas Acer she bought in 1997 on up to that 15000 dollar gaming rig that Johhny Richkid owns. They are accessible. They are easy to get into yet have enough depth to keep you coming back for more. One would argue that they are also cheap but when you start paying for things on them they add up fast. the point is that these games are huge because they cater to the largest audience possible.

Now I am not saying this game should copy World of Warcraft. However I am saying that when building a new product, should you not look at what makes the best ones successful? If I am trying to design a new sportscar, should I look at a Toyota Prius? No, I look at the Bugatti Veyron(If you haven;t seen this car look it up, it is amazing). The problem with mmorpgs is developers are always trying to make their games different so they can exist side by side with the big dog. The problem is that the market just isn't big enough for this. Sure if you want 100,000 subs for 6 months then go ahead and do this. However I can assure you within a year tops ome other deviloper with the same exact intentions is going to come along and pop you right off your rock. Why are developers content with making the same mistakes over and over again? Anyway I need to get ready for work, unfortunately I have to work on Christmas:( Have fun guys!

You know that 3% of PC users in the U.S. is pretty freakin' huge, right? Do you know what that number is? I just found it out.

It's 9 million. Even if it's less then that, we're talking millions of people. Now include European gamers. More millions.

Most MMORPGs don't have 1 million subscribers, but what kind of severely stupid person would suggest that you need 10 million subscribers to be 'successful'. Nobody here, I hope. An MMO is successful if it keeps paying the developer's bills; that is the only qualifier. That's the definition of success. There's no high and lofty ideal here, it doesn't require to be the "smash hit of the decade", it doesn't need fame and doesn't need Mr. T doing commercials for it, and it doesn't need to be crowned "WoW-killer".

City of Heroes is successful. Age of Conan is successful. LOTRO is successful. EVE is successful. They're developers are still getting payed enough to live off of, and they keep working.

Champions Online failed, they couldn't keep paying their employees so they're going f2p, and now they will be successful once the ball starts rolling again.

And no, WoW is not good because it's popular. WoW is good for it's own reasons, but millions of players does not make a game good, it proves that a game is good. More importantly, WoW could easily live off the hundred-of-thousands of players that just do endgame, hardcoe raids and hardcoe PvP. Do not say there is no market for a hardcoe MMO, or a pvp MMO, or an MMO made for gamers- which is, what gamesas is likely to do, I hope, an MMO made for gamers by gamers. If follows their motto, afterall.

Well, now, go do some research. Read up what people where saying about every MMO before it released. Go read what publishers and developers say about their MMORPGs. How many times can you count them saying, "It will be the WoW-killer!". Simply put, competing with WoW means, like you say, catering to the same audience. Which I think I've illustrated by now is entirely unnecessary! It also creates dull knock-offs, your WoW-clones. I won't name-names, but most of these aren't terribly successful and manage to stay small, have few devs working on them and a tiny audience. This is the majority of the MMO market: WoW, and then your WoW-knock-offs. It's very hard to ignore this, I'm surprised you seem to have.

So, no, %3 of the population is more then enough to supply an MMORPG. No, having having 10 million+ subscribers is not the only definition of success. No, do not say that there is no market for a different 'kind' of MMO. No, you don't need to cater to the largest audience to be successful. No, MMOs that fail don't fail because they try to be different, they fail because they try to 'win big' and 'kill WoW', neither of which you can actual count money on, but mostly fail because they svck (and there are of course some successful WoW-clones, but again not naming names).

First off OneUgly, your figures are skewed. You say that 3% of the US PC market is 9 million computers? Go to these 2 links:

http://www.census.gov/
http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/computer.html

The current US population is listed on the first link. On the second link read Appendix A Under CPS October 2009 and you will see that in 2009 the amount of households with a computer with internet access is 68.7%. According to the US Census, in 2010 the US population is 308,745,538. This means that roughly 212,108,184 people live in a house that has a pc with internet access. Now take 3% of that and you come up with only 6,363,241 people that could possibly have a mid to high end gaming rig.

Now lets think about one important point you are missing here. Not every one of them play mmorpgs. I have maybe 3 friends that have gaming rigs, not counting myself. Of thse 3 friends only one other one plays mmorpgs. So even if 9 million were correct your numbers fall apart there.

I didn't make this post to start a thread war. I made this post because I am a huge fan of Fallout and I don't want to see this game turn into a 3 month bargain bin game. I have seen it happen with too many games that could have been great. I am sick of having one game rule the genre. Look at just about every other genre in gaming(except maybe sports, where EA is king), and you will see that the dominance of the genre changes every so often There is always competition. With the mmorpg market this hasn;t been the case since 2004 when WoW burst onto the scene.

Now you call games like City of Heroes, Age of Conan, LotRO successful. I don't. LotRO had to switch to a free to play model to even keep its servers running. Age of Conan is only running still because little boys like nvde female characters. And City of Heroes is not what you could exactly call successful when the average person maybe levels one toon to max then leaves. This is not a good game. I had a ton of fun with CoH leveling my Claws/Invuln scrapper. However once I got done what was there? Absolutely nothing. The game lacks any real endgame and that to me isn't successful. Right now the game may be making enough to keep it's servers afloat but I can assure you it isn't making much beyond that.

You say that WoW isn't good because it is popular. I say that WoW is popular because it is good. "If you build it they will come." While their may be a niche market out there for small mmorpgs, it would be a shame to take an IP like Fallout and let it enter that market. This is one of only 2 games that has a chance of taking on the big dog. The other is The Old Republic. The reson these two have a chance is because they both have a hugely successful IP behing them.

I will say this though. I am liking the support this game is getting from the people on these forums so far. Having an active online community is almost as important as having a great game. Keep it up guys! Also I wish everyone a Merry Christmas! Time for me to go eat some dinner lol. I hear my sweet potatoes calling!

After reading through this thread I have come to the conclusion brought up by anyone was making the game scale down to perform smoothly on lower operating computers. The developers of this game are much more aware of how in game mechanics affect gameplay than any of us, and I'm sure whoever is backing this game financially has made it clear that they want to appeal to as many potential customers as possible.

Personally I think the place many games lose customers is with the high system requirements, mainly because only hardcoe gamers and tech enthusiasts feel the need to invest thousands on their system.

Also nobody mentioned how the giant player base of WoW kind of ruined it. So many bratty kids, login queues in the early days when there wasn't enough server space, and worst of all whiners. They have dumbed the game down so far it takes no skill to level up, and even most end game content is less than challenging. This was a direct effect of trying to appeal to casual gamers who didn't want to put time in to earn in game rewards, and in reality it robs many hardcoe players their eliteness. A game where everyone can get the best gear and beat endgame content on their first few tries just svcks. I had recenty renewed my old WoW subscription that I created on christmas of '06 and was so bored that I cancelled again by level 30.

I think if gamesas truly wishes to create the kind of title that they will want to play that they will try to appeal to the niche market that was cleverly described earlier. Although this may seem like the high road most mmos make their money on recurring subscriptions, and there is still an existing niche market for players who are sick of WoW's coddling to the babies so they keep their subscription, and although this market is smaller they are certainly known for their loyalty

*scroll down for summary*
I like most the comments here in this post. For the most part they shine light on both sides of the arguement well.

While I like this post i think one thing is being overlooked as to a massive failpoint to most post WoW mmorpg's. Most new mmorpg's which have a had time surviving all fail to realise one very important fact. They are trying to compete with a game that has had years to develop and expand and build itself to a great game. *face it it wouldnt be the money printing machine it is now if it wasnt a captivating game.*

And that right there is the one thing most mmorpg's fail to do captivate the audiance/players enough to get them to walk away from their highlvl character.

Some reasons they fail to do this are simple they fail to produce a semi finished product. When wow first came out they lacked many of the features they have now which keeps fans playing.

For a new mmorpg to captivate enough players to keep them playing they must be enough quests, story and content to keep players playing. Many fail to do this they release a half finished product hoping that they make enough money off the initial sales to keep expanding their game. That is one of the biggest reasons most fail. Lack of launch content.

For a new mmorpg to grab and hold enough of an audiance to stay afloat in the ever increasing over saturated MMORPG market they must come out of the starting blocks at a full sprint. With a completed game. Not some half finished unpolished lump passed off as a MMORPG.

*bare with me I referance WOW alot because lets face it that has become an industry standard for MMORPG at this point.*

For Fallout Online to stand a chance it must be a grand game on a large scope. Not some half assed grindfest people are sick of and are released every 2 months by some korean company. FO must have enough content to keep the fans busy, enough story and gameplay and locations to keep them playing. Not just aimlessly killing something because their is nothing else to do.

Something friend's can do together and achieve something *ie building a settlement for example or building a "gang" hideout* a reason for a group of friends to keep playing together.

Fail to do that......and FO will go the same way many of the MMORPG's that have lauched and folded withen the first yr.

to sum it up....
Give them*us* a reason to keep playing and we will. Keep expasnions coming fast show that you are expanding as fast as you can. They dont have to be huge expansions but enough content to keep folks happy for a few months.

Quarterly mini expansion sets and yearly big expansions and story progression.


*edit*
6 Things FO needs to survive
1. Content- Not a game released thats half done banking on intial sales to develop the rest of the initial plans im talking a full on completed game that has some room for ever expanding content.
2. Zero grinding- Most people who are sick of the "big one" want something else other the your standard MMORPG grindfests
3. Group bonuses and goals. Reasons for a group of say 5-10 friends to team up pool resources and build a home. *IE think the founders of barter town*
4. Changing story line the progresses alot of games are made and stuff is the same no matter how many times ya play it the quest you did the first time you played is the same the 15th time you lvl an alt. 4 yrsof the same NPc asking for wolf tail or damn candles..is kinda lame....in 4 yrs you havent got enough of those yet and your not asking for a new item?
5. More engaging gameplay then your standard point click wait click wait click style gameplay. More action based gameplay.
6. Charracter creation that is indepth. Most people are sick of playing a game and looking just like the next "class X at lvl Y" More of a feel of ownership "this is my charrater and i want him to look like this" stay away from the if you want to be the best you better wear this stuff formula I want my charracter to look like what ever i want him to look like while still being able to compete.

So if I go off and waste two months playing 17/7 (seventeen hours a day) and I unlock a room full of tesla armor and plasma technology. I then get my ass kicked by some gunslinging cowboy who challenged me to a duel. The Fallout universe is semi-realistic, but realistic enough for a pistol bullet not to go ripping through my power armor. Yea, I'm sure I could be killed by him. But its unlikely because it would be hard to compete with armor difference. I'm not saying theres going to be legendary deathclaw edition power armor, but there will be a damage resistance difference. Well I guess we're just a couple of problem solvers

If the gunslinging cowboy has the skills to beat your powerarmor/plasma weilding toon then yes.

what does it matter that you got beat in a duel.

in return the reverse could be said.
"why should this guy who lacks skill beat me in a duel just cause he has power armor"

for me a good game is skill>gear, Full charracter design>cookie cutter.
Im not saying power armor should be usless but it should not become if you want to be competative you better rock power armor.
Tell me your not sick of games that force you to look just like everyone else just because thats the best of the best gear.

Gear should give you a slight advantage but should not be thing that gives such an advatage that it negates player skill.

1. I'm not (sick of games..) because I go fight harder enemies. The game will be player consent PvP so I'd go and find the next best people. No one's saying you'll be ganked against your will.

2. I agree to an extent of that. I think there should be cowboy armor that is reinforced to still look the way you'd think could be badass, but only come close to the durability of power armor. Now, pay attention, yes the cowboy could kick my ass if hes got the skills and I had none. But, even if I'm an idiot in power armor and plasma weapons.. If I hit him once is it not reasonable he be severely hurt? He's probably wearing leather armor to look like a cowboy, and last I checked plasma weapons could negate that.. Bullets won't go through metal..

I've played games where I would be 15 levels above one guy and still get my ass kicked or barely win so I do know what you're talking about. Well I guess we're just a couple of problem solvers

7) Balance. I don't want no Medic throwing a stimpak @ my eye hitting me for 99999 damage with a power armor helmet on and getting one shotted. I mean being one shotted is fine as long as he has a .50cal M82A1 and sneak attack critical'd me from less than 50m.

And no Infinite ammo please! Im not saying it should be extremely hard to come by, but just something that makes you think.. hey.. I can't be wasting all my bullets on this mob, because I won't have enough for the Power Armor dude coming up.. You know?

Cheers.

This discussion seems to be veering off-topic. I'll try to get it back on-track, but it's worth popping in a few reminders.

gamesas has stated this will not be a 'hardcoe' or 'Ultima' style game. That's the official word, people. As far as equipment goes, arms and armor will probably be 'tiered' like in other RPGs (not just WoW, by the way): So, low level character will have access to knives, pistols and Mad Max jackets, high level characters will use power armor and powerful heavy or energy weapons. And since this isn't a full-PVP game, and PVP areas will very likely have level brackets (only 15-20 level characters can enter, etc.), a low level 'gunslinger' and a power-armored 'heavy' won't ever meet. This argument is still very interesting, the skill vs. equipment argument; it's just for an entirely different kind of game.

I think a good point or two can be extracted from this thread. FOOL will need to be different from other MMOs (All other MMOs, not just WoW), and it needs to be built to satisfy a diverse playerbase. Unfortunately, I think the 'hardcoe/make-it-like-Ultima' crowd will be very disappointed as I pointed out earlier; it's a shame there isn't a good game for them, they're a substantial crowd, even if they're very demanding.

I personally don't want gamesas to make a game for 'casual' gamers; I know that's the majority of gamers right now, but it's seems completely unlike Fallout if the game is just for 'unwinding at the end of the day'. Fallout 1 and 2 were very challenging games, with more then a little trial and error involved, and let you choose from more bad decisions then good decisions (even in character creation.) That all said, I can't safely say a 'direct port' of Fallout gameplay to an MMO would work, and MMO need to offer a different sort of gameplay altogether.

While a singleplayer RPG like Fallout challenges the player to manage their character, keep themselves alive, and use and abuse their henchmen efficiently, I think MMOs are a different sort of game, and the challenge should be focused on the multiplayer aspect: working together with other players is the only thing you can't do in a singleplayer game, so shouldn't that be the focus of an MMORPG? I know it's an old philosophy, but it works so well for online shooters: teamwork is the best part, not just 'pwning noobs'. In online shooters, Team Deathmatch is far, far more popular then just Deathmatch, and look at the success of Team Fortress 2, it's right in the name.

Though you say a team-based MMO has never been done, zipper, I still argue you're very wrong about City of Heroes, and I can tell you didn't get as much as you could out of that game. Although you might have leveled, and then left, I know that plenty of people return with every update, or still participate in the roleplaying or PvP community. And that's enough to pay the dev's bills (so they can keep working on more updates), and to keep their servers running (all the original server from when the game launched are still up and running, I'm pretty sure.) I quit playing, but I quit every MMO I play after a while, so that's not saying much. CoH sticks pretty well to my definition of "success", and I've yet to hear your definition. Correct me if I'm wrong, but yours is, "beat WoW", which to me is as sound as opening a supermarket chain with the hopes of beating Wal-mart.

Well, that's my two sense, this time WITHOUT the terrible math/factchecking. My wrists are sore, so I'm off and I hope to see a response, really. I'm enjoying this far more then I should be.

I liked your point man, Very well structured.

I agree OneUgly. Team play should be the focus of FO. I think if gamesas focuses on the community aspect of MMORPG's they will have a good starting point for a game. Many MMORPG's now days barely count as games as much as they are a psuedo-game built around a chat room (before I get flamed for that comment let me explain) The slow paced MMORPG's that focus on doing things over and over so repetative actions can be done on auto pilot allow for chating while playing click, type, click, type etc etc...Some people replace type with *insert voice chat here* programs but the idea is still the same holding a convo while playing. This community based "theme" is what keep people playing. I know many friends who are sick of MMORPG's but dont want to quit because of the friendships they have made.

One thing that is a game killer though is grinding. That one thing WoW has done and continues to do so well they try to reduce the grind feel, so many differant things you can do at lvl X. That is one thing most of these popping up by the handful free Korean based MMORPG's fail at, the grind. To hit the next lvl you can do these 3 quests we have but when those are done.....guess what go kill these mobs 500+ times to lvl so you can move on to the next zone and grind 500 of those mobs. *which btw half the time do not look any differant then the ones you just got done killing ...just this time they are blue not green...just wait till ya lvl...cause then they turn red*

Anywho well put OneUgly

@OneUgly

You ask what my definition of success is? I think I was pretty clear already. A successful game is one that is capable of being played by a vast audience, easy to pick up yet hard to master, and makes alot of money. City of Heroes, despite your love for it, is not a money making game. It holds enough appeal to keep its servers afloat but that is as far as it goes. Also you say I could've gotten more out of the game. Like what? Run taskforces? Please. If I wanted to see another poor mans raid I would play Lineage II. Level another character? Whats the point when there is nothing to do when I get there. PvP? I hate it.

My point is the game is a great game while you are leveling. It may also be a great game if you are a social butterfly. I am not, and judging by the fact that no game with forced grouping has ever gotten big I would say alot of people aren't either. I really don't think you understand that you are in the minority. let me take WoW for a second, and add your grouping into the leveling process.

Hello, I am Sarah, a newly created level 10 Gnome Warlock. I have just completed the beginner area and I am ready to set out. But wait, I need a group or I can't go anywhere. Now I spend however long it takes attempting to get a group together. Ok now we are out in the wilds and I just spent another 20 minutes of my time because Billy the Elf Priest didn't have all the quests and needed to run back and get them. Thats okey though because now we are all set.

We enter the cave and it is time to buff up. Oh noes! Johnny the Druid forgot his reagents so he can't cast his buffs on us. Well we can wait while he runs back into town. Now it is 10 minutes later and Johnny is back and we are buffed up. Time to start guys. Holly, our Dwarf Warrior is inexperienced in the game and runs in and pulls every mob in the area and we all die. Whoa, didn't expect that. Thats alright though, we can explain it to her on our way back. Now we are all back, buffed up and ready to go. Holly pulls a group. Eric, our Mage decided to go afk though and we don;t have the crowd control from hsi shep and we die yet again. So we rez up and Eric is back. Now we pull again and finally, after killing tons of mobs, we are able to complete our quests.

Now the same scenario, but without forced grouping.

Hi, I am Sarah, the newly created level 10 Gnome Warlock. I have just finished the beginner area and I am ready to go out on my adventure! I already grabbed the quests and I don't need to find a group so I am all set. I go to the cave. I summon my Voidwalker. I kill the mobs. I leave. Done.

Wow look at the time I just saved there. Hve you ever heard the saying time is money? Well itis true tenfold in mmorpgs. I am Average Joe American. I work 10 hours a day. Which game am I going to pick? The one that is going to take away half my gameplay hours worrying about group stuff, or the one that is going to allow me to jump right in and, to quote Larry, Git r Done? Now you, being a social butterfly would choose the group aspect because that seems to be all you care about. Most of us on the other hand just want entertainment.

I am sorry you don' agree with my but I am sad to say the points I listed are points that sell video games. This business is not about making the minority happy. It is about making money. Plain and simple. Like I said before. The more people you make the game for, the better it sells. Also one more thing when it comes to grouping. When exactly was Fallout a group game? Fallout is a story about a lone person wandering a wasteand. You may get the occasional helper/companion etc, but grouping is NOT a part of this franchise. If they want it to feel like Fallout, they will stay as far away from grouping as possible. Another point I want to make I am not an antisocial loser when it comes to mmorpgs. I am in a guild on WoW with 200+ people. We are currently just getting into the new Cataclyms raid content. I am a Raid leader and thus I need to be social to do that. I have 19 active friends on my friends lists, at least 5 of them I talk to everyday. My point is you can have social without grouping.

Thats all the time I have atm. I love these constructive discussions keep them coming. I will get into some other things next time. Seriously guys run out and tell every gamer you know to get behind this game!!! If we can get a big show of support this early just think of what it will mean in the long term!! And sorry if there are a ton of spelling mistakes in my posts. I am not the greated typer. It's actually quite sad consiering I was an English major in college lol..... Talk about pathetic:)

@ zipper76


.... ..yes.. Well I guess we're just a couple of problem solvers