1. No economy of significant wealth.

2.No Auto vendor stocking other than the most basic and damaging products like radioactive water which nobody wants to own much of, but enough to keep you alive.

3. The players supply vendors and the players create the economy. No equipment should be purchased. This prevents the "he who has the farming money" owns the best/most gear, and this prevents alot of other specific problems. Vendors who recieve player gear in transactions, keep it permanently until another player purchases it(or trades)

4. Everything is money. The game should not have an accepted currency like cash or coin. Instead its all about gear trading as a market.

that is all

I think Ammo should be the currency, with different cities having thier own "Prefered Ammo"

For Example (FYI- I'm not actually advocating the use of these names):
In Shotgun City, almost everyone uses a shotgun, so shells are the best currency.
In Hollowpoint Hacienda, everyone uses some variation of the 9mm (pistol or SMG)

Each city can have thier own exchange rate for Ammo

no bottle caps? no...caps?? but but but...caps? *The first time I saw a Deathclaw...well, now that's a story for a different day.*

Ah the bottle caps are seductive.

My dream-economy for V13 would be completely anarcho-capitalist.

The only thing NPC vendors would have are very basic things, and they would have only a small amount at a time--nothing like an infinite amount of items (why should NPCs have an infinite amount of items!). And the prices would be based on the going rate taken from player-to-player trade in that area. You should not be able to sell to an NPC and receive some kind of "global" currency like caps or coins.

When I say "in that area" I really mean that. There should be no global economic trading system whatsoever. I am not opposed to "trading posts" (auction house) in places with a higher population, but you should not be able to trade with someone through a mail system and you should not be able to bid on an item at a trading post you are not currently standing in. And the bidding would consist of people anonymously bidding on something with the seller having the option to accept a bid immediately if he likes what he sees or to wait for the time to expire and choose out of all the offers given...or choose to accept none of them if they all are crap offers!

As far as currency, well that should just develop naturally as the players see fit in each area. If the players in an area, for some reason or another, seem to have developed an economy where they base the value of items on how many cotton balls (or whatever!) they're worth...then so be it. If a player wants to trade a couple shovels he doesn't need for 10 cotton balls, knowing that he can get 20 .45 hollow point rounds for 10 cotton balls from someone else, then he is allowed to do that! The players will naturally make the game if they know ahead of time that there won't be loads of hand-holding.

This leaves room for change, if wanted or needed, and any other kind of natural evolution that goes along with ever-changing factors like: number of regular players in the area, large amount of new trade (or less trade) coming in, a game update that adds tougher raiders in the area who drop better gear, etc.

This kind of system puts even more control into the players' hands over one of the most important factors in the FO world--which is equipment...many times the difference between life and death!

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If you couldn't tell from my older posts, I always focus on economic systems in MMOs. I have yet to find a game that: 1. Makes sense to have this kind of system, and 2. Implements this system in every sense. In my opinion, this is the only type of system that truly makes for V13.

I have a million-and-a-half ideas for V13's economy, trade system, currency, etc. And I look forward to replies and messages!

Character equipment max load and max storage would need to be limited so these limited items dont get hoarded by a handful of players and sold for an arm and a leg.

Limited storage is an idea but not a fun one.

The challenge with a trade system and NPC is that NPC can't be taught how to barter (or can they?) Lots of AI coding there? Anyways... How is the NPC going to know that a health juice costs more or less than the Mega-Shotgun. Even if it is hidden from the end-user or player, there has to be a value system where NPC can tell what item is worth more economically than the other. There must a exists a Credit system in the backend at least for the NPC.

The credit system can fluctuate with supply and demand for the NPC to a point where the NPC Vendor won't accept trade for an item. For example, I want to trade 100 Heal juices (or whatever) with an NPC Vendor that has 1000 or more of the same item. He doesn't want another 100 Heal Juices.

Why do we need NPC Vendors anyways?

Lets look at Star Wars. They were based on a player economy and when there were no players on the server there was nothing to buy or barter for. Not saying that P13 would have an economy that dwindles in this fashion but it can be possible.

Special NPC Vendor items.

Having NPC Vendors can bring some fun into the trade system by offering vanity gear to trade for hard to find items. A NPC gunsmith may want a rare metal to create a Vanity Weapon. The public like the hard to get items but of course don't make it virutally impossible.

Vanity Items

These are important for players to compare their achievements. This is why BMW and Mercades still sell cars. Its human competition and comparison. PVE and PVP drops are great but add the element out to the economy.

I enjoy the concept; it is new to the MMO RPG Genre that I am aware of. No Cash or currency strictly trade just as it should for this game. Awesome.

You're absolutely right. Why do we need NPC vendors anyway?

I don't have a good answer, so I say get rid of them altogether! It would be an experiment, for sure.

Vanity items are a must-have for any MMO...even V13. You're right on target as to why they are wanted/needed, and would add to the depth of trade that could be done in this type of game.

I am still opposed to having a back-end valuing system. Players will figure it out and use it, thus diluting the hypothetical anarcho-capitalist system. With enough of a player-base, manipulation by devs will not be necessary, in my opinion.

NO NPC VENDORS IS ORIGINAL AND GENIUS

I think he should accept, but at a ridiculusly low price.

Let NPC vendors have their stock of supply but let them be quite expensive, so you could get your equipment there if you need it really bad (NPC stock doesnt have an endless supply of weapons/armors/consumables/misc - hate that -.-'), or you can buy off the playermarket for a more reasonable price. Just make a clean and nice tradingwindow

Oh, also different sort of vendors. An armor merchant can accept a weapon but he won't pay half the price the weapon merchant would pay for it, thats so items won't get into shops where they should not be.

IMO
Since there is no true form of central (widespread) government that can make/create money, I would rather see that merchants don't have lots of cash, bottlecaps, or pull tabs available during trades.

This will create a player driven what is valuable yet light weight to carry. (kind of like gems and bulk precious metals in the days of old.)

On the other hand, many players in a MMO might be very upset that they can just have money when they sell their items to a vendor/merchant.

Dave Chase

If you create an economy with a standard unit money, a few things you may want to keep in mind:

1) CAP value fluctuations. A bullet should not cost 10 caps on monday and sell out to cost 10,000 caps on tuesday.

2) BALANCE income -vs- costs in a way that prevents GRIND. I shouldn't have to kill 100 rats to get the 10,000 caps needed to buy 1 mega-cost-inflated bullet when I used 200 bullets to shoot all the rats. >.< Caveat: Rare or 'prestige' items...yeah those could/should be expensive. But not standard weapons, armor, ammo, repairs, supplies or stimpacks and the like.

3) BALANCE supply -vs- demand. If one vendor in one town sells out of 9mm ammo, I should be able to go to another town and find some there. Or in an hour or so I should be able to go back to the first town and find some there for sale.

4) Make the necessities and maybe even some midrange gear available from multiple sources: Random loot drops, merchants or even as quest rewards. And how about making multiple, repeatable side quests for these supplies as well? Do basic errand-boy stuff for loot/supplies. That way players can choose between MANY methods of acquisition (farm/grind or quest or player trade or merchant purchase) to get what they want/need.

If you decide to shift more to player/npc trade -vs- buy/sell merchants I would recommend FIXED values for everything, and let the player's barter skill have a greater impact on costs/profits for trading and merchants. But again...CAP the skill-based fluctuation here as well.

A good rule of thumb for all 'systems' you may put in place: Keep V13 more about the story(ies) and quest(s) along with branching plot/outcomes. Engaging attachment to the people/places is what made the original Fallout series great in the first place and kept me and friends/family playing it even to this day! If you see Metal Maniac, let him know I'm looking for 'em.

1) CAP value fluctuations. A bullet should not cost 10 caps on monday and sell out to cost 10,000 caps on tuesday.

To fix that set a max/min price for vendors to buy and sell stuff for. Also make different vendors - Weapon vendor buys weapons and ammo for a reasonable price but they dont want armors, consumables, misc items. Armor vendor only wants armors and like weapon vendors they dont want other stuff. They can buy but they aint giving you much money. And a consumable vendor for stimpaks, food etc and a scrap shop for misc items.

2) BALANCE income -vs- costs in a way that prevents GRIND. I shouldn't have to kill 100 rats to get the 10,000 caps needed to buy 1 mega-cost-inflated bullet when I used 200 bullets to shoot all the rats. >.< Caveat: Rare or 'prestige' items...yeah those could/should be expensive. But not standard weapons, armor, ammo, repairs, supplies or stimpacks and the like.

Just one thing... DONT! let creeps that shouldn't have money carry money. Rats and other stuff like that give xp, thats it. Maybe ratskin or someting like that I guess. NPC enemis like raiders, caravans (human NPC) they got ammo, weapons and caps that you can loot afterwards. Other than that I'd say that you craft your own stuff instead of finding caps on creeps that doesnt even have pockets.

3) BALANCE supply -vs- demand. If one vendor in one town sells out of 9mm ammo, I should be able to go to another town and find some there. Or in an hour or so I should be able to go back to the first town and find some there for sale.

Ye, automatic resuppliable shops is good just don't let them have an infinite amount of caps and stuff like that. And if all shops is out of 10mm AP just craft it yourself if you can or buy of another player!

4) Make the necessities and maybe even some midrange gear available from multiple sources: Random loot drops, merchants or even as quest rewards. And how about making multiple, repeatable side quests for these supplies as well? Do basic errand-boy stuff for loot/supplies. That way players can choose between MANY methods of acquisition (farm/grind or quest or player trade or merchant purchase) to get what they want/need.

Yup sounds good, just dont let armors be droppable by NPC (I can't see why you want to wear an armor that is blasted to hell). Maybe do some small quests that give you a shotgun, or a small gun with some ammo and caps with it.

If you decide to shift more to player/npc trade -vs- buy/sell merchants I would recommend FIXED values for everything, and let the player's barter skill have a greater impact on costs/profits for trading and merchants. But again...CAP the skill-based fluctuation here as well.

Ye, set a min/max price for items that can be changed with players barter skill. Make skilltable like old game, so a full PVP char won't get very high barter and still have extremely high combat skills, it should be more like crafters should have high trading skills with their craftingskills, make more sense.

A good rule of thumb for all 'systems' you may put in place: Keep V13 more about the story(ies) and quest(s) along with branching plot/outcomes. Engaging attachment to the people/places is what made the original Fallout series great in the first place and kept me and friends/family playing it even to this day!

Aye Why not actually make a quest that is EXTREMELY HARD!!!! but can change alot of things instead. But still I want the normal quests like in f1-2 and make speak a big part in quests. Like while you can blast someones head off, you can still talk to them and make them give up or something.

Ye, set a min/max price for items that can be changed with players barter skill. Make skilltable like old game, so a full PVP char won't get very high barter and still have extremely high combat skills, it should be more like crafters should have high trading skills with their craftingskills, make more sense.

There shouldn't be a barter "skill" in V13 applied to player-to-player trade. Your skill in trading with other players would come from your knowledge of the relative worth of what you're trading, and in true FO fashion, trying to take advantage of less-knowledgeable players. If some svcker wants to buy your rusty shovel for 100 caps, when you know that you would normally only get 5-10 caps for it, then so be it! That price shouldn't change by some percentage because of some arbitrary "barter skill". And there should be no price range limits.

This is FO--there's no real government, there's no fed, there's just a bunch of wasteland survivors--so what would be the reasoning behind any kind of price caps, barter skills, balanced availability of goods, NPC vendors whose stocks of goods magically regenerate every hour and always sell you the same stuff at the same price?

Dude, I didn't say that barterskill affects player to player trade.

What I meant was (longformat!) that there are two different tradingsystems. One normal with NPC vendors - Weapon vendor - armor vendor etc etc, they have set prices that can be influenced via player barter skills. Stuff people sell to a NPC trader is stored and can be sold by him. The negative part about NPC vendor is that they themself have pretty high barterskill and they buy stuff from people cheap and sell it expensive, also they don't have an infinite stock of supply (stock is resupplied every X hour, that means that everything is reset in the shop so it doesn't fill up with shitty stuff, it also sets a press on players to buy the stuff while its there).

The second tradingsystem is a bazaar, the normal place where players sell their stuff. Either do a bazaar as in you talk to a NPC and give him the stuff you want to sell but you cannot give him 1000 different things, with barter 50% you can sell maybe 15 different things at once, 75% - 20 things (ammo/consumables/misc items can be stacked, weapons/armor can not be stacked) but the price is set by the players and not influenced by the players barterskill or do a bazaar as in a big marketplace where everyone just stands and shout out what they are selling (or do both, NPC bazaar is good becouse you dont have to stand there all the time shouting and the shoutingsystem is good becouse you can sell how much you want for the price you set)

The positive thing about the player market is that the prices will be lower and you will probably find everything you need in there BUT player driven market could be slow sometimes, people don't want to buy your stuff or people doesn't sell much stuff there, thats why I want a normal NPC driven market system aswell and I know that system works good becouse I'v seen it in games, it just needs to be balanced.

Oh yeah, I like the point about not giving money to creatures as a loot drop. Maybe It could be like Fallout 1/2 where you could turn their meat into Iguana-on-a-stick or something like that?

OR...collect enough 'hides' and make/craft leather items like a jacket, leather armor, improved weapon grips, boots (affects travel time/rest), or maybe even a Deathclaw Disguise.

As for a player driven market...I never use it if I can avoid it. Everyone thinks their s--t if made of gold.

And yeah I agree, barter should be focussed on NPC merchants if it stays in the game. If you see Metal Maniac, let him know I'm looking for 'em.

Any room for inflation? Unemployment?

barter skill should only effect npc merchants and the cost to list items on a broker/auctioneer imo.

As far as vendors packing limitied inventory i dont think i really agree that its nessesary. Whats going to happen is your going to have a mule standing at the vendors in the major hubs running bot programs buying out the items as soon as they are available and controlling the player ran market witht here own items. this would lead to overinflation of player items and become a haven for "gold sellers".

The items that are supplied by vendors should be of extremly low quality allowing for crafters to make superior items that will be more desirable by players. This would allow for a player that may be stuck out in the wastland with no autioneer around still be able to continue if they run out of ammo or what not, but with decreased damage, range, armor, rad removal , ect. There is no fun being stuck in a gamming seesion run out of bullets and be stuck with a stick.

As far as global currency i think they need to have a global currency just like in all the other fallout franchises BOTTLECAPS!!! If they dont have bottle caps it wouldnt be fallout.

that depends, fallout 1 uses bottlecaps while fallout 2 uses money (fallout 3 thats even further in the future uses bottlecaps aswell.. but clearly they lost some braincells making that game), so if this is pre-f2 then the currency should be bottlecaps, if its fallout2/later timeline it should be money. (FoT uses caps but then FoT is at year 2197 wich is way before f1)

I would like to see a dynamic NPC vendor economy based on supply and demand, where prices of the items depend on the vendor's on hand supply. For example, a vendor gives you 200 caps for the first shotgun you sell him, the 2nd 175, the 3rd 165, ect. ect. The more he has in supply, the less he's willing to pay. Alternatively the more items that he has in stock, the cheaper he'd be willing to let them go for.