I like mmo's I really do. They are a fun time sink and are cheaper than going to the movies where Hollywood destroys most of everything they touch. However they like everything else in this world have their problems too. Here is a list of things I think break down the intense fun of a MMO and make it nothing more than a colorful dice roller.

Ok to start I have to say most of all gamers like to influence the world that we are in. We like to see that our actions actually impact the world in which we are playing. The Fallout series has always been good at letting us do this. When you play an MMORPG you find yourself in a world removed of consequence. Sure you can do quests/missions to save a town from bandits. Maybe you kill the bandit leader, but as soon as the quest is complete that town reverts back to being attacked by the same bandits led by the leader you just killed. There is no interaction here. This kind of behavior takes the player away from the story and they end up not reading any of the quest dialogs, they just want to get the reward and move on to the next quest. There seriously needs to be a remedy for this problem. Instances are fun but again even once you run this you are still unconnected with the world in which you play.

Next the problem of "stat freaks" these players are out to exploit and find out what must be done to have the most powerful character in the game. The problem with this is; it leads the player to not play the game the way they want. For example: If the most powerful class in the game happens to be a "mage" then people start picking mages just for the power increase. Even if they really prefer the playing the way of the warrior or rogue (I am just generalizing). These people infect MMO's by only hunting down stats. Instead of focusing on story and Character development they charge for items and stat increases. I know that the ultimate goal of an MMO is to create a character that is powerful, but I think it pulls the player away from playing a game that they feel connected to. A good Paper, Rock, Scissors class system handles this problem. While there will be a class that is slightly more powerful it is the job of the creators to make this slight so miniscule that the player can't see the advantage of giving up playing the archetype they like to make the switch.

Lastly Armor hunting has become a plague. I understand Armor is cool and making your avatar look awesome is everyone's goal. I think that being able to customize your armor would be the best way to handle this problem. Not just with stat increases but actual physical changes. Maybe you can paint your armor or add spikes from a bandits shoulders to your power armor. We need to see an game that doesn't have high level characters all running around in power armor. Just because it is the best.

Thanks

P.S. I love the series and have been waiting for FOOL for sometime. Long live gamesas.

by the numbers:

1. Most MMOs represent a section in time, sort of a limbo that constantly reverts, because ur experience is the same as the guy who played a week before u.
I would be VERY interested in hearing ur ideas for how to AVOID this issue, barring massive technical implementations.

2 and 3. All players Optimize, its what we do.
Again, any suggestions would be very interesting.


-Exo

1. I agree with this. I am certainly someone who does not read the quests, but follows the tomtom arrow to the objective just to get it finished fast. But then, team co-op pve and pvp are my main focus in MMO's, not individual questing or small instances. Fallout can potentially make a change here and have your actions effect the wasteland directly - perhaps you stole from the farmers to finish your quest, rather than help them kill the radscorpions in the fields. Perhaps the farm becomes more derelict because of this, or gives out less resources in total etc.

What they can't do is allow you to kill the NPC farmer dude, and for him to be dead for the rest of the life of the MMO. Realistic or not, that is impractical and impossible. There are thousands of other people who want/need to do the very same quest.

2. Stat freaks. I think you are more discussing Flavour of the Month players here by mentioning class swaps. Ideally all classes are viable and swapping isn't needed. Anybody who does swap frequently, following the fotm for a minor advantage (or just jumping on the bandwagon because they are dumb and substitute 's' with 'z' and spell 'lose' as 'loose') is making their own decision, and they are responsible for their own actions. The important thing is that normal gamers do not feel like they have to abandon their class because it is not at all competative in the wasteland.

In terms of making your character statistically very strong e-g choosing optimum talents/gear etc. Well, I would argue that IS playing the game and is character development. My WoW character can only raid hardmode ICC because I have chosen the right gear, and learnt about the character - I am deeply connected to what makes my Resto Druid my Resto Druid. I would argue the player who is too casual to care is far less bothered about their character and the game in general.

3. Customisations would be nice. It's very boring when a tier has matured and everyone has the best items and all look identical.

here's a nice tip: dont get involved with companies like EA or Activision (and no its not smacktalk about other companies chris :p ) In gaming terms... Life's a die, then you bich.

ok , where to start. customisation is great, and i would love to be able to make my armour change how it looks without effecting the stats. its nice to go on "a raid" and not have a quarter of the players look exactly like you. i would like to be able to have a last name. so i can set up a family with my firends but its not the be all or end all. and being able to set a nick name would be nice. everyone needs a unique character name so Ben frank would be the unique name and i can set "Franky" as my nick name. it avoids all that stupid spelling of names just to get it to sound like what you want.

now actual game play. well i am a HUGE fan of professions but hate them in wow. like really they are soooo limited and after a while most of them become pointless. i was always a fan of ultima online where they had so many professions and some of them didnt make you gear but made furniture for homes n stuff.

what i would like to see is about 4 or so professions that make parts, 4 or so that make things with thoes parts a few gather professions ect and i would love for them to all require each other. lets build a community feel to the game.

i like an auction house type thing, maybe you buy and sell through travelling traders or something.

one thing i hate about wow is there is pretty much only one way to get better equipment. i would love quests where it takes you ages and ages but in the end you get something pretty kick ass. i.e. you find a gun , it looks old but there is something about it that makes you think its special . you drop it off and go on a quest to convince some guy to help you fix it find parts, steal it back ect.

items. one thing i hate about wow is the gear and how the items stats are fixed so everyone goes well i need this from goof head and the hammer from cold nose the hard ect. i would like to see random stats and random names of items. blizzard did this really well in diablo, why they stopped for wow i have no idea. but i would like to see the mechanics being something like. GORDO the raider will drop an items of a blar quality,
computer does a roll and wow its going to be a pistol. so then the stats are randomly generated for that pistol within come some confines and give it a random name.

ONE LAST THING. please dont make it free to play.

free to play sux,its full of hackers, money sellers are crazy , bots, poor new content GMs that dont care. i think most gamers will be happy to pay an ongoing fee for the quality of the game to be held up and constantly approved.

thanks , and sorry for the rant

Why not? They make good games and they know how to make money.

well, they make good games, not great games.

They've got a few GOOD titles, but they have even more forgettable ones.

well they have published (not made them!) some awesome games mass effect 1,2 <3<3<3<3

Well Exo I am glad you asked for suggestions. I am not one to offer just problems but maybe some solutions.

For the first problem of the static universe I would employ a sort of instanced map. WoW did this some in WoTLK. I would take this to another level. Instanced Questing. I know this is a technical headache for programmers because you pretty much have to make two games at once. One where the quest has not been completed and another where it has. So I have been thinking how to circumvent some of these issues. One way to possibly get around this would at the very least on completion of said mission give the player some sort of trophy or even an invisible item that cannot be seen or used. It would be placed on the player for the game to see that this quest has been completed. Let's use an example.

"A player attacks bandits in a near by cave hideout to stop raiding on the town. Upon arriving in the cave the player fights their way to the bandit leader. The player is then given a choice. Kill this leader and stop the attacks or in Fallout fashion, help the bandits attack the town. Killing the leader gives the player normal loot and inside the loot is an invisible item letting the game know not to spawn these bandits for this person ever again or even just to make them invisible to the player. If the player chooses to help the bandits then upon completion of the "raid" mission the player is given normal loot and another invisible item that allows the bandits not to attack the player next time they enter the hideout. The player would have earned his stripes with the bandits therefore causing them to be friendly."

Now I know this is really a band-aid because the game isn't really changed but it is for the player and that is enough for them to take pride and really weigh the outcome of the choices they make. Also it starts the discussion amongst other players "Well I just killed the bandit leader and they have never returned."

As far as the problem of "Optimizing" I really do have a way around this. To get around this problem you need to allow the player to create a character that is completely their own. Instead of bland characters that other games let you have you make a system that allows very in depth customization. I have developed a system that goes around the Norm of RPG's. Right now RPGS work off certain base stats. In the Fallout series we Falloutians call it the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system. Now imagine that system of Strength, Perception, and so on broken into Matrices. Every level the player instead of being given the point onto their base number the player is given the ability to place the point on a grid which affects those stats. Place a point further towards the Strength axis and it pulls the stats closer to strength and further from say Intelligence.

It is hard for me to see these things in practice because I have no idea how the designers of FOOL are creating their stat system. But my system allows players to even further optimize their character without adding to much of a coding headache. I know it sounds intricate but I have worked it over with some of my friends and it seems to be the best way to control the stats.

Regarding the idea of having an impact on the gameworld. This is really, really tricky because no matter how you swing it, you are almost always developing content that players won't see, and that ultimately just isn't efficient. Even in single player games, too much choice leads to too much branching which leads to too high a ratio of content created to content experienced. Yes, it adds replayability but not everyone replays.

At the end of the day, the developers have to sacrifice either quality or quantity to develop content that way. You either get content that isn't as good, or much less content. I'd prefer to have plenty of good content without the notion of choice as opposed to the other alternatives. It's already difficult to make sure you're providing enough stuff to do in MMOs.

As for powergaming, well as a powergamer myself I'd have to say that there's really no way to stop it. I enjoy min/maxing, I enjoy specialising, and I enjoy synergy. It doesn't matter how many possible configurations of stats you create, one will always be best, and people will identify it. The trick is to make sure that the differences are as minimal as possible -- the smaller the difference, the less likely people are to reroll. This is actually easier with a smaller number of total classes / configurations than with a larger number. Furthermore, this kind of min/maxing is what attracts a lot of players to MMOs and RPGs, and is a defining feature for them. If you remove it, you also alienate a very large portion of your playerbase, to whom the idea of being able to create and design a character is appealing. Maybe you'll sit and sigh, wishing that I were near
Then maybe you'll ask me to come back again
And maybe I'll say "Maybe"

obviously in MMO you cannot make player choices impact the world, since its packed by players making the same choices but it doesnt mean you cant make the world react to you, at least on reputation base system.

Min/Maxing and character optimization are all good in an RPG. You are supposed to advance your character and you are expected to do some planning and take the time to find a good scheme. But in the end it all boils down to personal flavor vs game options. If I wanted to create a survivor I should be able to. At the peak of my career I would venture the Glow and swim in the radioactive sea because I'm so good at using my survival gear and skills. If I wanted to be able to steal people with ease I'd be able to do that too. BUT IN NO WAY I should be able to survive bombs, steal people and oneshoot raiders from 300m with the same character. All around characters are a choice too. But they can't do all those feats with the same ease a specialist does. The SPECIAL system does just that, you improve skills and take relevant perks, so it restricts you from maxing everything.

I choose to be a specialist. Am I bored of this? I pay a heavy toll and change my orientation. I think that this is the best way to deal with character optimization.

Well Exo I am glad you asked for suggestions. I am not one to offer just problems but maybe some solutions.

For the first problem of the static universe I would employ a sort of instanced map. WoW did this some in WoTLK. I would take this to another level. Instanced Questing. I know this is a technical headache for programmers because you pretty much have to make two games at once. One where the quest has not been completed and another where it has. So I have been thinking how to circumvent some of these issues. One way to possibly get around this would at the very least on completion of said mission give the player some sort of trophy or even an invisible item that cannot be seen or used. It would be placed on the player for the game to see that this quest has been completed. Let's use an example.

"A player attacks bandits in a near by cave hideout to stop raiding on the town. Upon arriving in the cave the player fights their way to the bandit leader. The player is then given a choice. Kill this leader and stop the attacks or in Fallout fashion, help the bandits attack the town. Killing the leader gives the player normal loot and inside the loot is an invisible item letting the game know not to spawn these bandits for this person ever again or even just to make them invisible to the player. If the player chooses to help the bandits then upon completion of the "raid" mission the player is given normal loot and another invisible item that allows the bandits not to attack the player next time they enter the hideout. The player would have earned his stripes with the bandits therefore causing them to be friendly."

Now I know this is really a band-aid because the game isn't really changed but it is for the player and that is enough for them to take pride and really weigh the outcome of the choices they make. Also it starts the discussion amongst other players "Well I just killed the bandit leader and they have never returned."

As far as the problem of "Optimizing" I really do have a way around this. To get around this problem you need to allow the player to create a character that is completely their own. Instead of bland characters that other games let you have you make a system that allows very in depth customization. I have developed a system that goes around the Norm of RPG's. Right now RPGS work off certain base stats. In the Fallout series we Falloutians call it the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system. Now imagine that system of Strength, Perception, and so on broken into Matrices. Every level the player instead of being given the point onto their base number the player is given the ability to place the point on a grid which affects those stats. Place a point further towards the Strength axis and it pulls the stats closer to strength and further from say Intelligence.

It is hard for me to see these things in practice because I have no idea how the designers of FOOL are creating their stat system. But my system allows players to even further optimize their character without adding to much of a coding headache. I know it sounds intricate but I have worked it over with some of my friends and it seems to be the best way to control the stats.


Ok, interesting stuff. Let me play Devils Advocate though.


1. Instanced questing is very doable, City of Heroes did this.
Unlike WOTLK though, that made certain areas "semi-instanced" in the sense that two characters standing on the same spot would see two different things in the game world.
Its an interesting but very limited solution, u cannot do this for every quest, its hard, its very taxing techincally, and in most situations it just doesnt work out, the ones in wotlk where the expetions and they where specifically designed to work in the way they did.
But City of Heroes did this first, and they did it another way, basically by making many many instances, and every mission would always take a player into an instance.
If the player brought some friends, the instance would adjust and become harder.
The problem here is two fold, first very quickly for every bracket u know the instances in it in and out. And even though the missions are sometimes different u basically end up going to the same 8 or 9 places for every lvl zone, because making much more then that simply isnt viable. Problem number two is that the REST of the world is empty, since everyone is off into their own instanced lvling zone.

2. Ok, intricate customization, this was done in Shadowbane, creating litirally thousands of different options. While ill go to my death saying SB had probably the best character creation system ive seen in any MMO, it did have some glaring faults.
Namely that no matter how intricate, or how personalized u can make ur character, something will be BETTER then something else.
Funky, cool, personal builds only lasts as long as they can survive, getting facepwned too many times in pvp sends ppl back to the drawing board to optimize their character.

And there is no way around that, because when u put Strategy, like run-up-to-him-and-hit-him-over-the-head-with-my-supersledge-strategy, with Math there is one way, and only one way, for those numbers to come out optimally.

Im all for variety, the larger the better, but that will only create even LARGER focus on items and stats to optimize ur build.


-Exo

Ok, a few things. There should never be a level "cap." I hate that in WoW you level to the level cap, and then your character is done. Sure you can play with your skill points, but essentially your levelling days are over. The only reason to hunt is for money and gear.

In Everquest, they have the alternate advancement system. This is not my preferred method of continued advancement and/or improvement, but it works. It allows for further character growth and development, without sending people out to find gear. I hate the grind for gear when you don't gain anything from it. You should always have the ability to learn something.

That being said, I really would hate to see the ability to learn all skills and abilities as a way to circumvent this. I know in Fallout you can assign points however you want, but that really doesn't make for a variety in characters. I like the class system because I like the idea of multiple different characters with a variety of skillsets. Obviously this isn't as viable in Fallout, unless the variety in skillsets/abilities was by playable race, but there should definitely be variety. (I haven't caught up on the forums yet, and have only been following this project to find out if gamesas won the rights to develop it.)

Gear shouldn't be about getting the best/most powerful weapon. I like to find new toys and think to myself, "Hey, that looks cool," and actually have to use the item to get a feel for it, before deciding whether or not I like it.

Obviously we're gonna all want power armor. I want it, you want it, we all want it. I'd like to see power armor designed with different capabilities in mind. I think it'd be cool to have/use/play with, especially if each set had its own ability built in.

I look forward to see what actually happens regardless, especially after seeing what Bethesda did to this franchise.

They've got a few GOOD titles, but they have even more forgettable ones.

the games themselve arent the problem, its the attitude and the huge greed from the companies that ruin games In gaming terms... Life's a die, then you bich.

1. As you mentioned, WoW has some quests in WotlK which seem to be instanced. The quest in dragonblight which gives you a cutscene changes one area of the zone forever for that character. That was a nice touch and became my favourite quest chain ever in WoW, and I had done a lot of quests in WoW before giving it up (again...) It seems to me that this feature will be a major element of the next expansion 'Cataclysm' as i'm sure i read hints of that nature somewhere. This sort of evolution of WoW could easily give the game another 5 years of being the most popular MMORPG out there. I am certain that even by the time of the eventual release of FOOL, WoW will still be top dog in this genre. This feature had its downfalls when I last played the game, however, as I'm sure that was why I could never see any other raid members outside ICC. A minor inconvenience that I'm sure will be ironed out in the future.
Now I'm not trying to sing the praises of WoW too much, there is a reason I no longer play it (it eventually gets boooring), but as the standard bearer for popular MMORPG's we can expect that much will be learned from the way that game works by gamesas.

2. This is certainly the bigger problem in my opinion. In WoW I would always have a worker on each server. That is, there had to be a character particularly primed for a certain job to rake in the cash and fund the development of other characters. In turn, I would always have a list of things I would need to do for these other characters. While this may seem like a different issue, the point is that each character seemed predetermined in its development and of course the end goal (between major patches anyhow) was always going to be the same within particular specs and sometimes within the whole playerbase of a class. Raid x each week, hope y drops, gain uber-set z, or if your pvp; kill x.... you get the picture.
This progression was set against the background of optimal specs which became prrescribed by others in game. I was guilty of it to. I also played a resto druid main and my friend did too. I went round to his house once and saw his spec, told him it was wrong and how he should change it. He did and thanked me for it, after i left WoW he claims to be the best healer in the guild now and of course thats because he now has the right spec. But really there should be no right way to spec, there should just be the best way for you to spec, possible different from the best way for another to spec. (My belief is that this issue is also being tackled in cataclysm but I don't belive it could have much success in WoW).
I think I had more to say but maybe I didn't, can't remember what the third thing was or even what my point was. I shouldn't have drank that last beer so quickly maybe..

A big problem I see is the high level game often requires a certain set of character specialization to get anywhere. The most obvious example is the tank, healer, damage-dealer combo. I used to play a druid in high level Everquest, and man, was I screwed when it came to getting in groups. I could not do solid damage or enough healing and ended up being a waste of space more than anything else. What is a player with high speech, sneak, science etc. going to be able to contribute over a player with more obviously useful skills (big guns) at the highest level of play?

Obviously those who specialize in science, speech, etc will not be as favorable to add your gang when you go PvP/PvE BUT they could be very useful in a guild/gang/whateveritiscalled. It also depends a lot on combat, if it is fps then you can have them in your PvP/PvE party, maybe they won't be as accurate at a distance (they get a much wider aim circle), but they should do the same dmg.

But if they go classic where character specialization improves damage by the weapon they use then they will certainly be useless.

This is a concern, but only if you assume that the devs won't make any changes to the SPECIAL system, and just do a straight copy+paste from fallout 2, which would be a little bit silly I think (the assumption, that is). There's nothing to say that the devs couldn't design a wicked evil scientist type class (or skill-set, whatever) that carries a mobile chemistry set on his or her back, and mixes vials of toxins / radioactive material / etc before hurling them at the enemy. A sort of kamikaze, volatile grenadier that leaves the battle field splattered with equal parts toxic goo and enemy blood. Science skill could be a primary determinant of the potency of his or her concoctions.

Or, we could end up with a system that splits skills into two groups -- combat and utility, and gives points that are exclusive to each group. So as you level up, you have to devote points to both your battle prowess and crafting / utility skills. It's not super hard to make utility skills important either. You could simply put deadly traps on all dungeon loot, making an adept explosives expert more important than a medic.

There are a lot of ways to tackle skills that might previously have been seen as less useful, and to find ways to meaningfully and interestingly integrate them into the metagame. Maybe you'll sit and sigh, wishing that I were near
Then maybe you'll ask me to come back again
And maybe I'll say "Maybe"