The problem I see with your point is that if things continue the way it was from Oblivion onto Skyrim, every player created character can be virtually the same. What's the point of being a mage from the start if you can make a warrior and be just as good at magic later down the road? Sorry, but I'd rather have differences between playstyles and not have everyone becoming the same hybrid crap like in Oblivion.

a chunk of ice stabbing through your ice into you brain will kill you just like a knife would, getting shocked would cause your muscles to contract making you in effect a sitting duck. you can dodge a blade, i think it would be harder to dodge a lightning bolt. well a real lightning bolt anyway. i can't attest to how much either one would hurt, and i know you cant either unless you've been roleplaying maybe and someone brought a real sword? not likely, but im gonna go ahead and say that magic can be just as deadly as a blade weapon, probably even more so.

I never suggested that every enemy should be capable of being killed by a single spell. I said that Goblin Warlords should be able to be killed thus, if attacked by one of the more powerful spells of a wizard who has Mastered Destruction..

I would neither want nor expect to vanquish a Dremora Valkynaz with one spell. . . which, due to the broken scalling system, was actually much easier to do than killing a Goblin warlord.


As to Liches and the like, it is fine for them to have resistances, but it is not fine if a pure mage character, even when maxed out, is all but unable to defeat one of them.

And why should a lich automatically have spells as powerful as mine? This all depends on varying degrees of ability and talent. A sorcerer of lesser genius and talent may have found himself at the limits of his ability once Journeyman status had been attained, and through Lichdom managed to become an Expert of Destruction, Conjouration and Alteration. . . . my Master status could still trump his. Lich = more powerful than the mage you were and more powerful than the average mage, Lich does NOT = (equal) more powerful than any living wizard who exists or ever existed.

Yes.

Becoming a powerfull warrior is more easy and enjoyable then trying to become a powerfull wizard in Oblivion. As a wizard I want a magic system that allows me to do some pretty impressive [censored] to my enemies when I have worked my ass off at it.

But you shouldn't have to work you're ass off to accomplish such things as a spellcaster. Yes there has to be effort but not at the expense of fun.

I don't want to be forced to cast an array of spells to defeat a couple of Goblin warchiefs or any other creature similair to those when I mastered several schools of magic.

Fun people...Fun.

(Posted my text ment for this thread in another...Stupid of me.)

it should take effort to be able to blast away with ease, but like doomsiren said, it cant ruin the game, still has to be enjoyable.

Because not everyone has powerful magic at their disposal. Nor are they meant to. You, however, as the player character, are intended to be at least capable of playing as a gifted character, capable of mastering wizardry or warcraft, or a combination of the two, in was that average NPCs cannot. You ARE one of the special characters, like the special enemies, and the master wizard and legendary warrior NPCs and lore characters.

A very powerful wizard SHOULD be able to destroy the average small army. The same could be said of a superhero quality warrior.

The game is intended to allow you to play as a semi-overpowering figure. In other words, a Legendary figure. Legends are full of warriors who could defeat armies. Samson slaying dozens of warriors, himself armed with nothing but the jawbone of an ass. Legendary Achilies with only one vulnerable place on his body. So too there are stories of enchanters casting spells over entire kingdoms etc. Should your master warrior or wizard be able to one shot every creature in the game, even the mightiest dragons an Daedric Warlords. . . no. Should you be able to kill a dozen goblins, Warlord and all, or a batch of trolls with a single high powered fireball if you are a master of Destruction Magic? Absolutely. If you couldn't, what would be the value of the school and skill?

What...i think you missed their point entirely...actually ive seen zen on numerous occasions making the point that the exact opposite of what you stated is being implemented in skyrim based on perk limit design among other things.....i think the wording was something like "in oblivion everyone starts out different and ends up the same...and in skyrim everyone starts out the same and ends up different" You can still have pureclasses in skyrim and they will be even more limited/unique based on the perk limits



Are goblin warlords not the most powerful of goblins(as well as one of the stronger creatures in general)? You did infact say you should be capable of killing "a handfull" with a single spell...so that in turn makes everything under them killable with one single spell....which if they are the strongest, that is the same as saying everything at that point besides boss level enemies should be killable with a single spell. So i dont really understand what youre saying...you want to be able to kill droves of everything in the game except for the boss level creatures with a single spell? sounds ridiculous

a lot of your argument seems to be like doomsirens "don't want to be forced to cast an array of spells to defeat a couple of Goblin warchiefs when i mastered several schools of magic"


you want to take all the strategy/thought process/challenge out of the game because you find it more fun to blast everything dead with one spell? that sounds like playing a game of asteroids

just because youve mastered a skill the challenge of combat doesnt magically dissapear and youre able to slice through everything like butter.

The fact is from the get go the warrior in skyrim is more defnesively oriented then the mage... more hps alot more armor can block..... add on top of that the fact they are balancing the magic toward a more attack heavy style of fightting rather then the extremely defense oriented magic style of ob...

And add in 2 handed casting of spells... and you get some serious damage output.

It seemed to me it was more like david vs golliath stories....lets take mw and ob for example

i didnt find that the reasons for you being able to complete the main quests were because of your immense godlike power like you claim(and i am speaking main quests because you are referring to the type of character you are in the games storylines)....but moreso because of your wit/willpower/destiny/whatever....

you dont just blow dagoth ur away with your immense power, you collect useful artifacts that aid you in defeating him that only you can obtain because you are chosen.

you arent anything overly special in oblivion either, you arent known as some destroyer of worlds.

You are clearly exagurating. Why does everyone here start yapping about one hit kills for everything? The only thing suggested here is that when you are a high level wizard you should be able to destroy a couple of goblins with relative ease. I mean...For gods sake they are goblins! A goblin warchief is not the reincarnation of mehrunes dagon! Nor should a group of them be.

Enemies who are clearly weaker then you should be easy to kill when you are a high level wizard. They should not be required to kill the same way as when you were a novice.

I actually think magic was underpowered in large fights. I loved having the option for a spell editor in oblivion simply because it NEEDED one. Otherwise magic was underpowered. I hope magic recieves a significant boost in skyrim but not greatbreaking easy.

Well, Gandalf is a god/Angelic Spirit beneath that old man raiment. . . and Raistlin did his best to erase the line, didn't he? BTW Raistlin could DEFINITELY destroy a city. So could Elminster.

I agree with the OP completely. I've never played as a full fledged mage before because it was two hard. I always died, and my spells where worthless against just every enemy, even the good ones svcked. Just about every spell that is actually powerful enough to save a full mage had magicka requirements that where humanly impossible to obtain without cheating. Any body who says magic is over-powered has never tried playing as a full mage.

Im not exaggerating thats exactly what the op is asking for. goblin warlords are the strongest goblin and one of the higher level creatures in the game aside from special/boss creatures. So being able to one shot a whole bunch of them is pretty significant.



@AinurOlorin i still havent seen you provide the proof where these games storylines show your character as being one of the almighty city destroying gods you describe, could you please link something. I havent read any books outside of the game really so i may not be up to date on the lore and i may in fact be wrong and we are really known as some kind of crazy amazingly powerful destroyer of cities and not the david vs golliath conceptish deal that i pointed out above.

@Empathic Tempest
With the perks system, you start as nothing, only your racial 'training' initially defines you, you then have the choice to specialise or not. You can be a hybrid, for example a spellsword, half your perks in combat, half in magic, or a general mage, all your perks shared between the magic skills, or a more specialised mage, a healer or a conjurer for example, taking all the perks for one school, and having less available for the others. Each of these is a different endgame character, very much unlike Oblivion, where you had to deliberately limit your character's progression, and not take all the power available to you, to get different end game builds. Now not all powers and abilities will be available, you have to decide, not just which skills to excel in, but which you want to excel in the most out of those.
@Ainur
In Skyrim, it is the ability to absorb souls and use shouts that mark you out as exceptional. You are already by birth capable of feats no one else is. There is no reason why your swordsmanship or sorcery has to be any better than anyone else's to mark you out as a legendary figure.
As for the liches, maybe I am wrong, but I would assume a 'journeyman' wizard would not be powerful enough to become a lich. And I am sorry if I was unclear, should have said "has the capability to have some spells as powerful as yours." It is difficult to formulate an argument, the forum is constantly signing me out. Ah well.
@ Harvv. Cheers!

I've never thought magic overpowered either. Using spellmaking in Morrowind to make really powerful spells was not in itself overpowering, I never thought. The magicka requirements reflected the effects of the spell so your armageddon nuclear blast fire ball spell took a lot of magicka to cast.

One of my gripes is that when you hit an enemy with a damage spell like a fireball for example, that does not kill it in one go, your foe shows no reaction to being set on fire and just keeps coming. I'd like to see some kind of change to this in Skyrim, dunno if you'd call it physics or simply animation or what, but the enemy should be staggered or something. If it was strong enough a spell maybe. But something. It's a bit ridiculous.

Hitting someone in the face with an axe would certainly NOT do more damage than an explosion, which is actually more akin to a powerful fireball than the example you used. Ever seen a gas explosion? Fill a room with gas, light a match. . . . entire buildings have been blown to pieces by such things.

Lightning can melt sand into glass. Tornadoes tear entire cities apart. And if you think one axe blow to the face is more damaging than a bomb which explodes and turns an entire village to ash, you haven't been attentive.

^Obviously, this guy's completely ignorant of how much more dangerous electricity, fire, and ice can be compared to a blade. I'm assuming he's never read or heard of stories on the media about people getting fried by lightning or people suffering massive burn injuries from fire accidents. As for ice? Why don't you stand still and let someone throw a chunk of ice the size of a baseball at you and see what happens; this obviously won't kill or seriously injure you, but imagine the chunk of ice moving toward you at higher speeds. Also while you're at it, take the time to research information regarding to what extreme cold can do to the human body.

You exagurate.

I get the impression that you believe that we want to be able to do all this when we just escaped our execution? Should we be able to do all this what you wrote? Ofcourse we should!
If I master all the schools of magic I would expect not much less! We are no demigods when we escape our execution, when we pick a birthsign, when we killed our first monster or when we completed our first quest! We never said it should be easy to accomplish such level of wizardry. Only that it should be possible...A goblin warlord wielding nothing more then a dagger and some jury rigged armor should not be a match for a master of destruction. Or at the very least the mage should not be forced to use runes and other hit and run tactics to defeat such creature.

I'm well aware of the possible changes Skyrim will bring because of the perk system. That's why I said that IF things continued the way they did from Oblivion onto Skyrim, it wouldn't be an improvement at all. I said that because based on what one of your previous posts stated, it sounded like that you want the Oblivion system for magic and other skills incorporated into Skyrim.

@zen well said haha and i agree with pretty much every opinion of yours that ive seen

also ive asked ainur if he would please link his info on where we are known to be these city destroying, army toppling, godlike sorcerers hes speaking of.

@AinurOlorin above again as you still havent answered ^



Im not exaggerating at all....what i stated is exactly what hes asking for....being able to destroy a handful of the higher level creatures(if the creature is THE highest level in its category as well as being one of the highest of all the others then this makes almost everything in the game one shottable) and in turn all others besides unique/bosses in the game with one cast is ridiculous even after youve mastered that discipline.

you say " Ofcourse we should!"

i say that is ridiculous and based on nothing as the OP still hasnt linked me lore/storyline info where it states our characters are suppose to be city destroying army annihilating god warriors. I think zen puts its very clearly that in most all the games the only special thing about your character is that you are the "chosen/destined" one and not much special outside of that....in skyrim you are "dragonborn" but nowhere does it say you should be compared to some lore of a wizard who could destroy an army with one spell, being dragonborn along with the shouts is your uniqueness and you arent all that special other than that.

No harvv. Your derisive hyperbole is woefully inaccurate. I never said anything abuot being able to kill a dragon or multiple dragons in a single spell. If you think Goblin warlords should be as powerful and as hard to kill as dragons, or if you think that being able to blast three or four goblin warlords into Oblivion equates to wanting to annihilate an entire brood of dragons with one fireball, then you are applying a very poor standard of measurement and equivalency.

And it is not like saying any such thing of a swordsman worth his salt. But one would expect a legendary warrior, with the strength of Herakles and the martial skill of a ninja, to indeed be able to take out a dozen standard warriors fairly easily. And a wizard who can create an powerful explosion, should likewise be able to decimate a small army of ordiary soilders.

100% agree with op. Magics always been underpowered in vanilla games. Thank [censored] for mods.