THIS x1000...Someone earlier cited Demon's Souls....i have to agree 100% everything is just much much more rewarding that way. Of course this is just opinion.




Agreed with this but i also think it would be nice if they went a little more in depth with the difficulty slider although that would take a lot of time im assuming. Modifiy things like attack speed of enemies, blocking capabilities, giving enemies a wider range of skills to use as difficulty increases, things like that.

Wanting to be powerful at end-game doesn't mean you don't want challenging encounters earlier in the game. I think for many being able to rampage a bit after they've beaten the main quest is their reward for building a strong character. One could just as easily say that normal should allow for strong characters at high level and that those who never want to achieve that kind of strength should play on the hardest setting as that normal should always be challenging and folks who want to be more powerful at end game should play on easy. Personally, I'd rather see the former as I think it offers more options: always easy, moderately challenging during the bulk of the game but character is strong at max level, and always hard for those who don't want to become extremely powerful relative to available opponents.

To address your point: I would agree with you IF Skyrim had difficulty levels handcrafted by the devs for different players, ranging from Casual to hardcoe/Insane.

But a difficulty slider? That's just cheap and silly. It alters the reality of the world for your character at your own whims while playing. If you want there to be different levels of challenge for players who want to be "gods" and those who want to "barely survive", then difficulty levels are the way to go. Because if Bethesda sets up each level to be designed with the entire range of possible players in mind (including a Normal, lore-true mode), then we could each experience Skyrim in the way we want to play for the entire game, without the silliness of "magically" adjusting everything in the world to your liking. To me, the whole difficulty slider idea always seemed like something a modder for PC just came up with, and was simply kept by Bethesda.

With difficulty levels, a casual player going into the game, knowing they want it to be easy, could simply set it at a casual level, so the combat wouldn't be problematic for their relaxed style of play. For those who want the normal experience, pick the normal level. Those that are looking for a challenge, or who want to be crushed for making a mistake, can pick the hard, or insane type difficulties, respectively. This type of system has worked great for tons of RPG's in the past, along with action games, FPS's, etc.

That's what I think the devs should do, because it fits everyone's needs with different game experiences, and it actually does increase replay value, believe it or not. And for those on the PC who disagree, you can use the console to set everything just to your liking. :thumbsup:

Basically, I'd prefer to choose a combat difficulty that's established and described to me by the game, rather than just fiddle with it to find a "proper" amount of challenge. And of course, this option will be presented to ALL players when they start, so no one has to worry about it being an obscure "slider" in the menus.

If this doesn't sound like a better solution than the slider, please tell me why, OP.

EDIT: :toughninja: Ninja'd by BootySweat. So we agree, awesome.

I like being able to obtain great power, enjoy it for a time, then starting over. In fact, that's usually my primary motivation to retire a character and begin a new play-through. I'm not finished with a character until I'm feeling at least a little god-like.

Well in my post above i actually go into the difficulty slider a little bit, simarly as to how you would like it. And i agree with you completely but thats not the issue right now. If bethesda put tons of effort into the difficulty levels to make them each unique and have the combat difficulty altered in each then that would be amazing. But again that isnt the issue.

They are saying that in the standard game if you spend enough hours working on your character/mastering a skill you should naturally become some ubergod and those who "CHOSE" not be become all powerful have to stop leveling/mastering skill. Im saying i completely disagree with that because i dont want to have to stop leveling for fear that i eventually become this ridiculously overpowered(boring to me) god character. And im also saying that at the current time the difficulty slider is a very reasonable way for them to experience this godliness. Like look above at meraris comment "When I am not a Demi-god by level 60-70, there is something wrong with the game.I would like a rewarding progression of power." This is what i disagree with. For me there is a difference in rewarding progression(i think Demons Souls did an amazing job with this) and becoming a Demi-god.

edit: just saw your edit lol

I agree. Aside from dragon shouts, you are still a mortal. Even the best warrior, no matter how tough or trained could easily fall prey to having a major organ stabbed regardless of arbitrary level differences. They can and should reward progression sensibly, and without overpowering the player and turning everything into a joke. I don't see being god-like as viable unless they really decide to play-up the "soul of a dragon" thing and by that point, they might as well go all the way and let you turn into one.

So 5 levels Very Easy, Easy, Normal, Hard, Very Hard, etc. is OK but a difficulty slider is silly?

Isn't a difficulty slider just a difficulty setting mechanism with more points on it?

In any case I agree with you that the difficulty setting was not well implemented in Oblivion because it didn't improve enemy AI, or give certain enemies immunities, things like that would be great.

I kind of doubt Skyrim will have a slider vs. 5 settings like FNV, but in any case I would imagine (and hope), whether it is a slider or not, that the devs will give it some teeth and make the difficulty settings have real, tangible gameplay differences beyond enemy health.

Mastering a skill is no small feat. At least it shouldn't be. It should come from many, many hours of gameplay and you should be rewarded with enough power to reflect the amount of effort you put in to achieving it.

I think so too. Higher difficulties should bump enemy damage and aggression/tactics, instead of bloating them into HP pinatas.

the problem is that there are lots of different kinds of players who enjoy different kinds of gameplay and different feelings about how much power is too much. (Remember, with great power comes great responsibility.)

for some of us, if the game ever becomes too easy, it instantly becomes boring and we stop playing.

whether you play on easy or very hard setting, there is certainly still character progression, and on the easy setting it should be possible to become an all-powerful being.

Well... the problem with relying on the difficulty slider for that, at least as it stands, is that it doesn't change anything other than damage dealt and received, and that only in a very limited and direct way. At the easy end, it just makes everything squishy - whether rat or lich - and at the other end it makes them damage sponges - again whether rat or lich. Even without the fact that the specific way that Oblivion's is set up - so that the only damage effects are from and to the PC, so conjures still do full damage and commanded opponents still do full damage to each other, meaning that playing 100% difficulty pretty much requires focusing on conjuration and illusion - it's still an artificial and ultimately unsatisfying way of dealing with it.

IF they were to do a truly dynamic and complex range of difficulties, so that difficulty not only affected damage taken and given, but affected what spawned, in what numbers, how it was equipped, what tactics it used, how hostile it was and so on, then that would probably be a workable solution. Short of that though, I just don't see it as a legitimate way to achieve the goals of the players who want to play notably powerful characters.

So - to me - the other option is to essentially set the highest levels of the skills and the highest perks so that they're enormously powerful, and make the requirements to achieve them so high that the only people who will are those who deliberately set out to do so. A normal character with even a relatively broad range of skills would never have to turn down a skill increase in order to remain non-uber because a normal character with a relatively broad range of skills would never qualify for the uber abilities anyway. The only characters who would ever achieve those dizzying heights in the first place would be those who set out to do so, and who invested everything they could into that one goal. I don't see why they shouldn't be rewarded for doing so, and it wouldn't make any difference either to me or to my characters.

No, but there should be progression.
When I am just out of tutorial I would expect to be easy prey for almost anything, but by the time I have invested 300 hours into the game and am level 60 or 70 I would expect just the reverse, almost anything should be easily killable.
This does not mean that there shouldnt be rare instances of boss level lichs or powerful dragons or whatever but it should never again be like Oblivion that just had no progression at all.
The level scaling should not be as intrusive as to scale every bandit with you so they never get easier to beat.

To me it depends on the class or type of character you play;

Assasins/thieves = Can deal massive amounts of damage to a single enemy with stealth attacks.

Warriors = Balanced

Mages = Can easily deal with groups of lesser enemies

Of course every class should have something agaisnt all enemy types and groups.

The fact that some people want to play as near demigods and others (like myself) want a continual challenge is exactly why a difficulty slider is needed. That same comparison is also why at least for me, the mobs leveling with you in Oblivion was a good thing.

My characters began to feel more powerful long before I maxed out a given skill. They became powerful when I finally got to the point where I could block one incoming sword and stagger that attacker, spin to the left and decapitate his buddy, jump back and give a fireball to the face without missing on the 3rd guy coming in...etc., etc., and without missing a beat. If I get to the point where any of my characters start feeling exceedingly powerful, that character gets retired and i make a new one.

I *do* agree with there needing to be a variation in enemy difficulty. For example: A level 50 rat < L50 wolf < L50 Bandit < L50 bear/sabertooth < L50 Mammoth < L50 Giant < L50 Lich/Vampire/Werewolf < Dragon

And if there are variations within subtypes of these enemies, and the occasionally randomly spawned boss of any subtype, even better. Variety, and challenge, are the keys.

I hope we don't see any level 50 rats in this game.

they should be replaced with a different species of creature

Last time I played Oblivion I bumped http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/FDamageWeaponMult up to 3, making all melee damage three times as powerful. This helped make the game much better.

They should remain the same level, and show up at random.

I'm not saying don't introduce anything new, but don't make things suddenly disappear either. This makes it much more satisfying when you notice how much better your character is.

Did anyone play Morrowind? Was I the only one excited when I could finally survive inside the ghostfence?

Hehe, I agree, I was just giving examples. Normal rats, wolves, bears, etc., are all "trash" mobs at all but the earliest levels. I don't think rats need to level past 5, or wolves/bears past 20, for example.

If they did it like Dragon Age 2 the highest difficulty would allow you to massacre enemies, but only if you use the proper tactics and damage types for each specific enemy type. The enemies also had ways of putting the hurt on you. I really liked Nightmare mode in DA2 and I found DAO to have rather dull combat.

this is true.

I think the leveling system worked for the most part for FO3 and FNV.

I hope also that unique Daedric artifacts do not level. If I want to bust my ass to take on a clan of Ice Vampires at a low level and find a unique magical item I don't want it to be crappy. Also I hate the concept of having to wait to a certain level to get an item if I know it will be crappy unless I wait.

i keep difficulty as is. if i screw up and mess with the wrong enemy i deserve to get the crap beat out of me.

I understand your point. But again, I am simply stating what the solution to the problem is. As where you stating you disagree with the demigod thing is just your opinion, I would like to discuss a viable solution Bethesda can implement. It's really no use telling someone the way they want to play is wrong when 1. You can't do anything about it and 2. It's BGS that should allow all those people to play how they want.

Not trying to be critical, OP, but I don't understand what you intend to discuss that will change how people want to play a TES game. :confused: The only solution is changing how the game works to suit everyone's needs, thus allowing more customers/players to be happy. And that would be quite easy for a game developer such as BGS to implement before Skyrim comes out. And if not, then there will be a "difficulty level" mod for that, I'm sure. The issue is making the game work right for ALL players, including console players (like myself), as opposed to simply relying on modding to fix big game design issues.



The difficulty slider is silly because it's so vague. It doesn't tell you what it actually adjusts, and therefore you have to toy with it just to find out that it simply changes HP and damage for the PC and enemies. That's where the problem lies. And as gpstr put so well above, the game would be better off having an in-depth difficulty level system designed by Bethesda to adjust many variables, and it should tell you what your experience will be like in a brief description of the nature of the game with a certain difficulty level enabled.

Examples: Halo, Gears of War, Jade Empire, KOTOR iirc, etc.



Definitely agree.

Im not telling anyone the way they want to play is wrong....and to the demigod thing my opinions isnt just about the concept of the demigod(while i disagree with it i could care less if anyone else wanted to play like that, doesnt bother me)...its that theyre wanting this demigod status to come naturally as you put a ton of time into your character and master skills. So for me personally i enjoy the games a lot so in turn put tons of time into my character/as well as mastering skills i enjoy. Im disagreeing with the statement that they think this should just come naturally in the game after you spend enough time playing. And i was giving my solution for the problem they have...the difficulty slider is currently that solution. So for me personally since i dont really enjoy the game anymore if there is no challenge/thought to anything i would not take the difficulty slider low. And those who want to be able to blow everything away easily can notch theres down a bit.

There is a HUGE difference in terms of progression when talking about noticing yourself becoming stronger...and being able to obliterate a hand full of strong enemies with a single spell(this was a specific want in the OP of the other thread i was referring to in my op).



I never said i was trying to change how people want to play so im not sure where youre getting that from...i just wanted others opinions as i saw a large amount of people wanting to become this demi god of a character and i was wondering if i was alone in the thought that i prefer to be constantly challenged(obviously not challenged as MUCH by enemies i have already surpassed in the past, but still challenged). And i wanted to hear others opinions on the subject.



I started going into just what youre talking about in one of my above posts so i think we can say we agree with each other lol. Theyre saying they want this to naturally occur as you put a lot of time into the game....and myself being someone who does put a lot of time into their character, i dont want to be forced to stop leveling and playing the game how i like because i will inevitably become a "demi-god". Again there is a huge difference when talking about progression, wanting to feel like you accomplished something to me doesnt equate to being all powerful godmode destroyer of everything with one spell.(i could link the quote from the other OP about killing handfulls of mobs with a single spell if you like).

edit: to clarify im completely fine with people wanting to play as this demi-god character or wanting the choice to do that....but i dont want it to come naturally after i put a ton of time into my character. Like the other poster said he thinks after he masters several disciplines he should be able to destroy a handful of strong enemies with a single spell. the MAIN issue i disagree with is the fact they want it to just come naturally after a lot of time, i dont want to be forced to stop playing so i dont have to become this ridiculously super ubergod.

edit2: on the subject of purely the demigod level of power. I personally want to have to think through and come up with strategies on how to take on enemies if im using magic, like coming up with clever spell sequences and combos to example: slow the melee enemy down so he cant get in range of me while i weaken him to magic in preparation for my attack, or use frenzy before i come in attacking... whatever, theres endless strats you could use . And if im melee i want to constantly be figuring out how to go about fighting this enemy based on my abilities. I dont want it to get to the point where i dont have to do that anymore and i can just blow through everything in one spell. If other people want to thats FINE with me but i DONT want this level of power to come naturally with putting a lot of time into the game.