Prison life is rough...

Maybe you have the time and dedication to do that sort of research before starting to play a freaking game. Good for you. Most people don't, especially the older audience that a Mature rated game is aimed at. They read a review or two, or get the recommendation of a friend, and then try. And if the first time they try the game throws them an illogical and ill-thought out curve-ball because the developers created a broken and contradictory primary game feature, then even if they're not confused they're going to be frustrated and pretty contemptuous.


See the last paragraph of my post you quoted, and most of my post after that. You'll see that I think Bethesda could have done better by giving more character differentiation options, and by giving players the information they need to not create broken characters.

I'm just saying that what Bethesda have done is a solution to a problem. Not that I think it's an ideal or desirable solution. I am, however, certain that it's their attempt to fix a problem with Oblivion, at least. Not that they're catering to simple minded souls who wouldn't know an RPG from a paper knapkin, which seems to be the assumption of many posters.

It felt the same in the sense that you were weak, not in the sense that every skill was equally viable

This isn't about what makes an RPG and what doesn't. The dispute is over whether it's preferable to have the game recognize that your character is not a clone spat out at the beginning of the game and actually has past knowledge and talents. If you don't want to stick with the same skills you start with you, you don't have to. Very few, if any, are arguing for the restrictive leveling system that forced you to level major/minor skills to level your character.

The problem is Beth has essentially eliminated character creation. Now it's just character selection from a predefined list.

That has nothing to do with this...

I have to say that if ANYONE got confused playing any TES Game, especially Oblivion, than maybe you are playing the wrong game.

Even in Daggerfall the instructions were so clear and consise in pointing out what you can and can't do and what your choices are and the explanation of those choices that if you could read you should have been able to understand the game.

I never heard of an RPG before TES, never knew anything about them. I played the demo and within an hour completely understood what I was doing and made a new character out of each race just to play with them and see the differences in action.

An RPG is supposed to complex. That's the whole point of "Role Playing". If I wanted a game that I can pick up and play, there are shelves full of them in the stores. I want an RPG that makes me think. A game where I have to make choices and those choices have consequences.

With every "Interveiew" read I get less and less excited about Skyrim.

Well but oddly enough indi game producers have proven that often it is better to NOT dumb a game down. Mount and Blade sells like hot buns and that game will kick your butt for the first 40 hours off gameplay so much that you will have to restart over and over again till you have a workable char. But it still works because of how FUN the game is to play..
So the solution?
Make the game complicated but make sure the base game is fun so that people WANT to get to understand it.

It amazes me how many 'points' people try to make about this mythical 'dumbing down' crusade when half the points have nothing to do with making the game easier.

Mistakes? We need yet another way to help us not fail? We already have saves, if we don't bother save regularly, our bad. And five mins into the game? How much hand holding do we need? Don't get me wrong, maybe this will turn out to play so well I will love it, but after so many reports of streamlining, I'm beginning to worry. Mods can't fix everything, some things are hard coded. Enough streamlining and we will find ourselves looking for a game that can be fixed with mods.

I hope one day people can realize the Elder Scrolls franchise is forever changing and always will be. It is the least static RPG with the least static functions and operations of any game with sequels I have ever seen.

Todd if you found oblivion confusing please do not touch the witcher series , those games will make you feel like a neanderthal

I think the problem they were addressing was that of some players not being able to create a "wrong character." Like a player tagging skills related to warrior and then goes and changes a few hours into the game because they find magic more fun or enjoys punching people.

I think it's a smart solution because whatever type of player you are, it's virtually impossible to create a wrong player. You can't tage a wrong skill, and if you want to change the way you play haklfway through it looks like you can. It may be harder to level up until you get good, but such is life.

It leaves you with endless roleplaying options, instead of a limiting class you chose when you're just stepping out of a prison.

Excuse me you must've missed the bit where I asked for character definition at the beginning of the game.
Classes arent the only way ( or even a very good way) to define your characters beginning abilities

I was confused by Oblivion. There, I've said it.

I once said, "Oblivion was designed for game reviewers and not RPG players". You emerged into daylight and could do anything, go anywhere, kill everything (DAGAKE): a reviewers dream. And certainly the first 10 hours where the most fun, a reviewers time scale, after which, depending on your initial build the game dissolved into a total mess. This DAGAKE approach also appealed to those lacking the patience for and understanding of character progression, but what the hay? The game destroyed most of the common metrics of character progression anyway.

This was level scaling, the games major feature now (almost) universally despised, the reality, in action. Did anyone ever test this game? Did any testers progress beyond level 1? Did all the testers play with inverted major skills? Did anyone ever try testing with alchemy and summoning as the major skills? Honestly, the biggest, no, most almighty BUG I have ever seen in a released game is Obs level scalling - and I fully expect a following comment to describe it as a feature, ho-ho-ho.

How could any company release a game with such a major flaw, and not only release the game but initially promote said flaw as a major feature? Yes, I WAS confused by Oblivion. And now the same company, a company oblivious to major game breaking flaws says "we are making some major changes, changes we have never tried before, but you'll love them. Trust us." And I'm expected to swallow this, without doubt, debate or question?

Todd opens his mouth and words come out, those words are spoken in a language I call Managese. A language based on the promotion of self and agenda. I deal with managers every day, a manager myself indeed and I know exactly the sort of bull merchants we are. Trust me.

The defining comment pre-release Oblivion came from Todd: "Our games all about riding a horse and fighting things". I was surprised, saddened as this comment totally missed all the parts of previous games that I found fun.

What will the defining comment be for Skyrim? "Who do you want to be, what powers do you want?" [Players think,] "I don't know, I haven't played yet!", perhaps? This comment does not necessarily embody a demon incarnate, the fluidity of the 'pick up and play' mantra may well be fully realised. The comment could also mean, "we have abandoned every thought of trying to balance anything apart from basic combat skills. All subtlety, gone. The ability for meaningful user defined characteristics, lost - but hopefully the majority will never notice or even miss them."

I am not calling Skyrim or Todd out on this, with so many changes compared to the previous games I'd be a fool to call it either way. Past experience with Beth. suggests it could go either way, the path of OB or the path of Fo3. Past experience and recent industry trends are also telling me that Skyrim should not be a day one purchase.

I think the confusion is over the term "class". A lot of people are using it interchangeably with "professions" or "history". Restrictive leveling does not necessarily follow from class selection.

Ever played Arcanum ? there are zillions of different builds to start as providing lots of fun before even watch the intro. Classes IS the best way to RP .
I want to start a barbarian , level a barbarian and finish the game as a barbarian and then start another class, or just pick a class out of my hat , this is half the attraction of an RPG.
Unless of course you are a COD player....

This flaw you speak of led to a system in Fallout 3 that worked extremely well. They may have missed the target initially, but refined and honed it until you couldn't even notice it was there.

Much like any art form, you only get better with iteration. Learn from your mistakes and improve. It isn't until we make mistakes that we can learn from them.

The only thing witcher 2 needed to do was put RTFM in the opening credits.