My concern is that if the ending is some utterly cliché'd tripe like transforming into a dragon to fight Alduin, my impressions of the writing aren't going to be very favorable. :spotted owl:

You know at first I see, I don't want to have to look at/ I don't see why people need numbers to tell them how their characters are. and then I ask...ok so how do you know your progressing? and in retrospect to not wanting to look at stats, I guess many people forgot how you'd get a little paragraph or so about your charater getting stronger. how about you just pay attention to that?

I think this is a good time to add that I don't think the OP was saying anything about numbers per se. The point is that all those statistics are arbitrary; that there is no good reason numerical attributes should be there if a better mechanic exists. This is not to say (though it might imply) that attributes are an inferior mechanic, or even that games should not contain numbers- these are very different arguments. Some posters, in this thread and elsewhere, seem to feel that their characters will not be 'whole' without a set of numberical attributes, and the OP was addressing this.

However, the recurring emphasis on "numerical" attributes is a diversion from the actual point. Yet again, the issue at hand is not whether or not "numerical" attributes should exist, but ultimately whether or not the attributes should exist AT ALL. Like it or not, the only way that a computer has to represent those things is numerically. It can certainly display them to you in some other form, but at heart, they HAVE TO be represented numerically - that's the only language a computer knows.

Contrary to the recurring assertions of all too many posters, those who advocate the retention of attributes generally don't do so because of any desire to have numbers specifically in the game. It's not really about the numbers - it's about the things those numbers represent. I don't want a number for "speed" in the game just so that I can have a number - I want a number for "speed" in the game so that my Khajiit can be faster than my Orc. And similarly, I don't want a number of "strength" in the game just so that I can have a number - I want a number of "strength" in the game so that my Orc can be stronger than my Khajiit.

Those distinctions add to the complexity and believeablity of the characters. Their lack diminishes those things, and really all this is about - all this has ever been about - is having those QUALITIES in the game. The numbers with which they're represented are simply a function of the unavoidable fact that that's the only way a computer can accomplish it. And the seemingly endless complaints on these threads about numbers in and of themselves is really nothing more than a red herring.

Look to TF2 (the prime vanilla version, before unlocks and hats). It's game-play was severely reduced from TFC. Fewer weapons, no grenades, less player-side tinkering over all. Yet (prime vanilla) TF2 is/was arguably the better game. Why? Style and polish. It worked better, despite its simplicity and was easier to learn, but still hard to master. Further, it had character and characters.

Ah, I don't believe I've been fully understood. I didn't mean to say that we should forgo game mechanics - making Skyrim and future titles into 'interactive movies' like Hard Rain - simply that role-playing should rely on progressive character interactions, not steadily increasing stat-numbers. What I enjoyed the the most about New Vegas were the companion quests. They simultaneously defined my courier and progressed his companions along their character-arcs.

The eleven fundamental attributes of natural and supernatural beings are agility, endurance, fatigue, health, intelligence, luck, personality, speed, strength, willpower, and magicka. scholars and sages of the six magic colleges are familiar with these fundamental attributes from the works of the earliest aldmeri philosophers and the concepts adopted by all the other scholarly disciplines of imperial culture.

An individuals agility is it's property of coordination and mobility. For example an agile creature is able to target it's blows accurately and effectively

An individuals endurance is it's property of sustained expenditure of physical energy and resisitance to bodily injury. an individual with greater endurance can withstand long periods of physical exertion without suffering exhaustion and is less likely to suffer permanent harm or death from disease or physical injuries

A persons health is a measure of its capacity to withstand physical punishment, an individual with weak health succumbs easily to disease or injury while one with exceptional health can endure and survive deadly disease and injuries.

intelligence is a property of reasoning, anolysis and retention of facts and experiences. Other then it's critical utility in problem solving this property is the most important for the comprehension and manipulation of the advance forces associated with magic, those with greater intelligence are proven to have a greater capacity to cast larger and more powerful spell effects


A creatures luck is it's property of aligning itself with the subtle currents of fate and destiny. This is the most subtle of fundamental attributes and can only be judged by observations the favorable and unfavorable outcome of the creatures actions over a long period of time. (OH SHID KARMA?)

A persons personality is it's property of exciting the emotions of intrest trust and loyalty in others, for example a person with a powerful personality is more than able to persuade and influence others through, speechcraft, gesture and demeanor

A persons speed is it's property of rapid physical articulation and body movements. A speedy individual is able to preform physical actions from equiping a weapon to running long distances in shorter periods of time.

A Persons willpower is it's property of maintaining it's purpose and identiy in the face of hardship and malign natural and supernatural forces. a creature with strong willpower is better able to resist the effects of hosile spells cast on it.

A persons strength is it's property of efficiently lifting carrying and manipulating objects a stronger creature can carry greater weight of armor and equipment and strike more powerful blows with hands and weapons

A persons magicka is a measure of it's reserves of supernatural energies. spellcasting creatures expend supernatural energies from their reservoirs and create magical effects. this is replenished by resting and by other arcane methods


Estirdalin Mages Guild

ITS A GAME the hell what do you expect to freewheel it in the game? there are still levels, quantitative Stats of health/Stamina/Magick how much weapons deal in damage, how many skill levels you need to pass for Perks. PERK RANKS..........Perks at add Percentages, like really 25% block increase? people come the ***k on and stop that garbage please....

I like the perks more. Simple as that. Good thing most good RPGs are moving towards skill/perk/traits over attributes.

sooo basically Bias.


Prime example of, IDGAF that you don't like what they are doing, I like it, so your a whiner :teehee: excellent.

Because you're absolute need for attributes and anything less being "bad" isn't BIAS either.....


herp derp. We get it, hipster old school rpgers are rampant here - noone cares.

People talk about complexity and yet I've never seen any clear definition for it. Any definition would obviously be more or less subjective. One common mistake is to equate complexity with quality. High complexity doesn't automatically make a game better than a less complex one. This is especially true for the kind of complexity that never actually factors into the gameplay. The fact is that the more complex game is (and by complexity I mean that it has a lot of variables like skills, attributes etc.) more difficult it is to actually differentiate them from one another and succesfully factor them in to the gameplay. The complexity then just makes the game bloated with useless or trivial stuff. I think "less is more" is a very good dictum to go by in game design, to use it as a starting point and then increase the complexity if that is needed. That's how I view the "streamlining" in Skyrim - removing useless stuff and concentrating on differenting the remaining stuff from each other and factoring them into the gameplay as well as possible. That's elegant design and I like it.

Perhaps I should not have prefaced the word 'attributes' with the word 'numerical'. Allow me to restate: 'speed' is arbitrary. In athletic contests, there are events for short, medium, long and very long (marathon) distance. Many athletes excel in one of these events but not all of them.

None of these necessarily has anything to do with the ability to avoid being hit in combat, wear light armour, or what have you.

Since when are attributes and perks mutually elusive, or even slightly redundant? D&D has had both for 11 years, from what I gather. Fallout had both in 1997.

Since when are attributes and perks mutually elusive, or even slightly redundant? D&D has had both for 11 years, from what I gather. Fallout had both in 1997.