Too Much Freedom

Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:36 pm

Idea:

A revitalized "hard-core" mode that can be set at the beginning of the game and cannot be turned off.


The purpose:

"hardcoe" would serve up to the RPGers who long for the days of Morrowind a reasonable compromise, with things like NO fast travel, fogged map, and other features that we love to demand.

Regular mode would feature the game as it was meant to be played by beginners to the series or casual gamers.


Although, to note, "hardcoe" shouldn't mean, "We made enemies 500% tougher and now you take 50% more damage. LULZ" It just means different mechanics and a different feel.


That's a really good idea. Then everyone can be happy.
User avatar
JERMAINE VIDAURRI
 
Posts: 3382
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:06 am

Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:12 pm

Here's an article I wrote for my videogame blog called snip. It talks about all the ways modern videogames are disappointing me. It's long, but I'm sure you're smart enough to realise reading is nothing but good for you.

EDIT: I should stress that I am playing The Elder Scrolls on Xbox, not PC. That means that yes I'm playing a "lesser" version of the game, but it's also more definitive in its aims and successes. So bear in mind that modding is not an option for me and more importantly, is not really a fix for this problem without changing the game into something it was not originally intended to be.



TOO MUCH FREEDOM


When The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind was released by Bethesda in 2002, everyone fell in love with its detail and freedom. Here was a game that let you do what you want, when you want, who you want. Don't want to complete the main quest? Sure thing. Don't want to kill anyone in the game whatsoever? Possible, but you're an idiot. Want to just cut and run into the wilderness, never to return? You could, and more than that, it probably won't even be by choice. Morrowind was a dangerous continent filled with monsters, a character of your complete design, and this overwhelming sense of absolute freedom. But how much freedom is too much? Well, one only needs to look at its sequel, Oblivion, to find out.

The best thing about Morrowind is that it felt like a living breathing world. It was massive in scope (approximately 40 square kilometres), possessed fantastical flora and fauna and was incredibly dangerous for all but the most battle hardened warriors. But most important was its sense of risk and reward.

If you strayed from the beaten path, you eventually had to stumble back onto it to get home. The only way to get anywhere in a hurry was to take silt striders, which only traveled to the surrounding towns, not all across the continent. This resulted in the need to memorise which towns gave you fast access to the places you needed to go, several silt strider transfers mid journey, and the eventual need to leg the last part of the trip to get to where you needed to be.

The continent reminded me very much of my own; Australia. There's cities all around the edge of the landmass, and only danger in the centre. You could, and often did come across enemies that were simply far too powerful for you to defeat at your current level. And the catch was if you did, through bravado or necessity to complete quests, stray too far from towns, there was absolutely no way out of the situation other than limping home, riddled with disease and broken weaponry. But sometimes carrying treasure and powerful items too. Because enemies and items didn't scale in difficulty or power in Morrowind, the chance of stumbling across a sword more powerful than you deserved at your level or mountains of gold was enticing enough that you did want to explore the world, and experience all the risks that came with it. It felt like virtual treasure hunting.

But Morrowind wasn't without its flaws, and when The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion was released in 2006 it fixed many of the things that were met with less than glowing praise from the critics and fans. But it also killed everything that made the first game special. And this was all completed through the inclusion of "Fast Travel". Fast travel, in a nutshell, was the ability to open your map, pick a spot and teleport there instantly (although in game time did pass, but this really had little effect on the game's events). There were a few rules, you couldn't fast travel whilst indoors, when enemies were around, or in the air. This kept the system from being exploited, but it didn't keep it from killing your desire for adventure.

Fast Travel means that instead of walking through the visually impressive vistas crafted by Bethesda in the world of Oblivion, we simply teleport. Instead of riding a horse through the wilderness, or strolling along a mountain path or seeing what might be over that next hill, you instantaneously reposition yourself as close as possible to your next goal. This also removes all the excitement of wandering off that beaten path, and searching for that ever illusive weapon that will give you an edge over the world.

And part of this decision is made easier by the fact that the whole world appropriates itself to give you the "best" experience. Wherever you go in Oblivion, the enemies will be an acceptable challenge. This is because both they, and the items they use and drop, scale in power to match your level. One could argue this keeps the game frustration free, but to me this creates a climactic plateau in the game's design. If you never feel out of your depth, your victories are hollow. If there's never a chance to find something wildly rewarding in the game world, you simply stop looking.

Bethesda are removing the joy and wonder of exploration in their games and breaking your sense of immersion at the same time. Oblivion is roughly the same size as Morrowind, but it feels so much smaller. And it's not simply a matter of just not using fast travel, we as humans are programmed to take the path of least resistance, it's a survival mechanism. If fast travel is there, you will eventually use it, and once you start, you won't stop.

In Morrowind, if you got into a tough spot, with no potions, over-incumbered with loot and a shiny sword sitting in front of you in the middle of the continent, you had a personal crisis over what to do. It was a serious situation because you'd have to trek all the way back to a town where you could sell what you had found and hopefully free up enough space in your inventory to collect the sword. Then you'd have to actually make your way back to the weapon (usually by foot) and collect it. It made you think about how much things were worth to you in the game, or plan ahead to make sure you never had to backtrack until you were "done" (you were never done) with your adventure. In Oblivion, you simply leave the cave and fast travel back to a vendor to offload your earnings, fast travel back to that exact spot, pick up the sword and continue on. What was once a forty minute ordeal became a five minute inconvenience. Decisions rarely came with weight and consequence.

In Morrowind, you didn't have a convenient compass that lead you in a straight line directly to quest locations and destinations. You had a rudimentary map, and you had the people around you. The quest would give you a fairly accurate guide on how to complete it, but sometimes you'd have to investigate further to find exactly what you were looking for. NPCs in the game world were useful to you, perhaps they would know where that cave is? Or how to get rid of Vampirism? Or maybe the answer's in a book, one of six novels worth of literature in the game world. Everything had purpose, everything was fully fleshed out.

Do you know how many books I read in Oblivion? One, and only because I was forced to in order to complete a quest. The whole game is spent looking at a quest compass and map, instead of taking in the world around you. You don't need to experience the game anymore.

There's a http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-crucial-lessons-learned-by-watching-kids-play-video-games/, and It's clear these are changes being made to accommodate a more current audience that might not want to deal with these issues that made Morrowind so unique. But it feels like the soul of the franchise has been deadened by its modern touches. There are plenty of games out there that keep things simple for you, that take you down the single path of narrative and scripted explosions, and these games have their place, but why can't Elder Scrolls have its own?

Bethesda clearly realised that scaling enemies was not a good move and have toned it down for the upcoming sequel, Skyrim, but i've seen nothing to indicate that Fast Travel won't be there to murder my sense of wonder and fear like it did in Oblivion.

What's the point of creating an entire world if you don't want people to see it?

No such thing as "TWO MUCH FREEDOM" Freedom is a wonderful thing and everyone likes it.
User avatar
Danny Blight
 
Posts: 3400
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:30 am

Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:19 pm


A revitalized "hard-core" mode that can be set at the beginning of the game and cannot be turned off.



LOL why don't you want people to be able to turn it off?

While I'm probably in the minority of fans still holding out a glimmer of hope for some sort of survival/hardcoe mode, I think it's more likely than not that it won't be in the game.

If it is however, which is still within the realm of possibility, I imagine it would be an optional mode that you can turn off at any time. Keep in mind it's relatively common for playthroughs of TES games to exceed 300-500 hours, even 1000 hours or more is not unheard of.
User avatar
kevin ball
 
Posts: 3399
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:02 pm

Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:40 pm

There is no complete freedom and too much freedom can be a bad thing, I know "FREEDOM" is a romantic concept, but I don't think I'd enjoy people being free to light my house on fire, kick my dog, or shoot me IRL and I also wouldn't like to be free to do whatever I want in video games because it removes all challenge and reduces immersion and just generally makes the game more dull if you can stomp your way through it any way you like.
User avatar
Dalia
 
Posts: 3488
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:29 pm

Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:09 pm

No such thing as "TWO MUCH FREEDOM" Freedom is a wonderful thing and everyone likes it.


How did you manage to misspell that? If everything is free, is anything really free? Without laws and constraints how are we to determine what freedom is? Without a point of comparison how can we be sure what we are experiencing is the thing "everyone likes", as you say, or just normality. And if freedom is only a good thing, that leaves other free to do what they want. To you. Positive AND negative. There is such a thing as too much freedom, and you'd probably never want to experience it in your life. It's called Anarchy. Absolute freedom only exists for a millisecond before others will use their freedom to take your own.
User avatar
Jade Payton
 
Posts: 3417
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:01 pm

Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:40 pm

I hate when people say that. "I stopped reading". You're basically celebrating your childish ignorance. You have no idea what you're talking about when you don't read what you are discussing, you're wasting your life away not reading things that may not be in line with what you believe, you're not right. None of us are. It takes a true idiot to boast the pseudo-omniscience required to claim that intelligent discussion is not worth their time. Nothing is perfect, and too much of anything is always a bad thing.

Try again to act like a mature, contributing member of society, even if only to keep up appearances.


On a forum discussing a video game?

wut :ribbon:
User avatar
JAY
 
Posts: 3433
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:17 am

Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:09 pm

I hate when people say that. "I stopped reading". You're basically celebrating your childish ignorance. You have no idea what you're talking about when you don't read what you are discussing, you're wasting your life away not reading things that may not be in line with what you believe, you're not right. None of us are. It takes a true idiot to boast the pseudo-omniscience required to claim that intelligent discussion is not worth their time. Nothing is perfect, and too much of anything is always a bad thing.

Try again to act like a mature, contributing member of society, even if only to keep up appearances.


I agree. It's an odd way of trying to express your low esteem for one's opinion. While you may be going for "I don't hold your opinion as being worth my attention because, though I don't really understand what you're saying, I know you're wrong", you sound more like "I didn't actually read what was said and instead am basing my response off of what I imagine was likely said." You come off as... less than intelligent.

On a forum discussing a video game?

wut :ribbon:


*Facepalm*
User avatar
Ashley Clifft
 
Posts: 3468
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:56 am

Post » Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:14 am

I agree. It's an odd way of trying to express your low esteem for one's opinion. While you may be going for "I don't hold your opinion as being worth my attention because, though I don't really understand what you're saying, I know you're wrong", you sound more like "I didn't actually read what was said and instead am basing my response off of what I imagine was likely said." You come off as... less than intelligent.



*Facepalm*


Exactly.

And @ your avatar: Cannibal Corpse ftw :mohawk:
User avatar
remi lasisi
 
Posts: 3307
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 2:26 pm

Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:21 pm

How did you manage to misspell that? If everything is free, is anything really free? Without laws and constraints how are we to determine what freedom is? Without a point of comparison how can we be sure what we are experiencing is the thing "everyone likes", as you say, or just normality. And if freedom is only a good thing, that leaves other free to do what they want. To you. Positive AND negative. There is such a thing as too much freedom, and you'd probably never want to experience it in your life. It's called Anarchy. Absolute freedom only exists for a millisecond before others will use their freedom to take your own.

I know the difference between to, too, and two. It was a typo. Why worry about my spelling over the internet? I'm sorry I did not know this was the grammar forums. Its my opinion and I can do and say what I like. Don't like it? Too bad. Freedom is a great thing and we as humans were born to live free. Freedom has nothing to do with "Anarchy". Should there be laws? Yes. but with freedom and not oppressive laws. Anarchy or civil unrest never happens unless theres opression by someone or somthing. I find it funny you think of your opinions as fact lmao!
User avatar
Isaiah Burdeau
 
Posts: 3431
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:58 am

Post » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:21 am

I know the difference between to, too, and two. It was a typo. Why get butthurt over my spelling over the internet? I'm sorry I did not know this was the grammar forums. Its my opinion and I can do and say what I like. Don't like it? Too bad. Freedom is a great and has nothing to do with "Anarchy". Should there be laws? Yes. but with freedom and not oppressive laws. Anarchy or civil unrest never happens unless theres opression by someone or somthing.


Yeah I'm sure you do know the difference, but my problem is that there's the title of the post at the top of the page, you then quoted my wall of text which contains the correct word in there in the biggest, boldest font I could manage, and still you get it wrong? There's typos and then there's typos. And it's just one of the signposts (another is the use of the word "Butthurt") of the fact that maybe your perception of what freedom is, or many other philosophical concepts, may be a tad out of your wheelhouse. You're contradicting yourself, you say there can't be too much freedom and then you say there should be laws. But aren't laws a way of limiting people's ability to do whatever they want with no consequences? Sounds a lot like the opposite of freedom to me.
User avatar
Tamara Dost
 
Posts: 3445
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:20 pm

Post » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:23 am

How did you manage to misspell that? If everything is free, is anything really free? Without laws and constraints how are we to determine what freedom is? Without a point of comparison how can we be sure what we are experiencing is the thing "everyone likes", as you say, or just normality. And if freedom is only a good thing, that leaves other free to do what they want. To you. Positive AND negative. There is such a thing as too much freedom, and you'd probably never want to experience it in your life. It's called Anarchy. Absolute freedom only exists for a millisecond before others will use their freedom to take your own.

Yes, Half of the joy of role playing games, is from starting as a limited non-developed character, who is limited in what he can do, and where he can safely go, and what quests he can effectively finish, but as we develop our character, and find better gear, and overcome opponents that block our way, and complete quests one by one as they become possible to complete, we would gradually break from initial limits and shackles, and proceed toward greatness, and uniqueness.

If all the options are freely available from the start, and you can easily go anywhere you like, and complete any task as you like, by your first level character, then there is no point in "Character Development" aspect of the role playing games.

If you can join any and all the factions from the beginning and become the head of all the faction by one character, then there remains no call for role playing, and developing your character to fit in the model role that we choose.

Role playing games are about playing as a specific character in the world, and developing our character to be good at that role, and it has to show somewhere, but if all the different types of character are equally good at finishing quests and are equally acceptable in different factions, and all can become the head of all factions, and all the things that the game has to offer, is freely given to all types of characters and roles, then I can not call the game a role playing game.

IMHO, Oblivion is an open adventure game, like RDR, and not as good in that.

On the other hand, Morrowind is a great role playing game, as our role model, and specialized character shows it's process and uniqness, because he can do things and join and advance in places that other types of character could not do.

As I have said before, the initial "TOO MUCH FREEDOM" is a poison for role playing games, but hard earned and specialized freedom in the fields that our character specializes is the satisfaction and bliss that I want to feel in any role playing game that I play.
User avatar
Skivs
 
Posts: 3550
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 10:06 pm

Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:28 am

I know the difference between to, too, and two. It was a typo. Why worry about my spelling over the internet? I'm sorry I did not know this was the grammar forums. Its my opinion and I can do and say what I like. Don't like it? Too bad. Freedom is a great thing and we as humans were born to live free. Freedom has nothing to do with "Anarchy". Should there be laws? Yes. but with freedom and not oppressive laws. Anarchy or civil unrest never happens unless theres opression by someone or somthing. I find it funny you think of your opinions as fact lmao!


*there's
*oppression
*something

:P
User avatar
Roberta Obrien
 
Posts: 3499
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:43 pm

Post » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:37 pm

I got to say I really liked what the OP had to say. I'll admit I probably abused the fast travel system too much. So when people started talking about hardcoe mode, it sounded like a great idea. I don't think some of the things mentioned should be taken out completely but I do like the toggle option. It sounds like not using some of the game mechanics would help immerse a person in the expierence making it more enjoyable. I also never played Fallout: Vegas and I don't know how the hardcoe mode worked out but it sounds like something similar in Sykrim would be pretty cool.

(Btw I've been looking at this forum for months and this topic finally got me to create an account.)
User avatar
Chloe :)
 
Posts: 3386
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:00 am

Previous

Return to V - Skyrim