The Unofficial NCR Vs Caesar's Legion Discussion

Post » Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:32 pm

How It Works
In this Topic you will be able to discuss the following two factions of why you feel they are the overalls the best, strongest, weak ext, Faction. The discussion will take place Lore-Wise and is about all of the Faction not just the group stationed in the Mojave. A following list of some Topics will be listed below you are free to claim an Idea and discuss about them and why you feel that the NCR/Legion are best for that Ideal. If a majority of people feel that the person who stated facts that they strongly agree with, then that discussed about topic will be crossed of and have the faction name listed beside a topic. If you have other ideals you wish to discuss about feel free to bring them up and I will edit your idea into the list.

Rebutil
If however you disagree with statements of what someone made about the NCR/Legion then you are at your free will to make your post on why you think they are wrong. Others are free to say their opinion on why they feel they are wrong. It is an open discussion on who you feel is best suited as the superpower.

Rules
Follow forums rules.
No Swearing
Respect other peoples opinions
If you disagree Kindly tell them your opinion
Again follow forum rules
There will be NO None at ALL talk about the other choices for Vegas! This is ONLY about NCR and the Legion!

Discussion Topics

Spoiler
Military: Who is the most experienced the best-trained military.
Weaponry: Who is the most experienced with them.
Combat: What Faction is combat ready and best planned for any battle.
Supplied: What Faction is at times best supplied and healthy.
Tactics: What Faction excels at combat and tactics.
Organized: The most orderly fashioned and organized.
Ranking system: whose works best.
Support: If the Troopers fail what does the factions bring in next.

Technology: Who is superior.
Arsenal: Who has the best weaponry and armour.
Technology: Who has the superior pre war tech.

Region: What Homeland is the best protected.
Enemies: Who has most control over there territory.
Trade: Who has the best trade system.
Food: In was faction are people best fed and kept well.

Structure: Who excels and building.
Money: What currency is the best for the wastes.
Government: Who runs their land best.

Vegas: Who should win the battle of Hoover dam?
Best: Whom would best run Vegas
Fiends: What faction would wipe out the Fiends fastest
Love: Whom would the citizens of Vegas like most


Feel free to talk about whatever you wish, there are but examples for you to discuss. Enjoy! I will be watching and discussing with you.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/New_California_Republic
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Caesar%27s_Legion
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aisha jamil
 
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Post » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:28 am

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!
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Leah
 
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Post » Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:10 pm

The thread that rages on. Literally.
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Paula Ramos
 
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Post » Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:03 am

:flamethrower:
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Cathrine Jack
 
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Post » Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:00 pm

wait....rules? respect? you do know this is the internet right?
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Jimmie Allen
 
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Post » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:14 pm

:banghead:
I've seen about a dozen of these in the past motnh.
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Milagros Osorio
 
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Post » Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:12 pm

Can we just stop? This got old a while ago.
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Hella Beast
 
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Post » Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:21 am

You forgot a rule: NCR supporters are not allowed to ignore Legion lore or try to avoid a subject when it doesn't favor their faction.
Cause that's what happens most of the times this discussion is brought up.
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Ellie English
 
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Post » Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:36 pm

Military: Who is the most experienced the best-trained military

Legion

Why? The Legion basically uses "survival of the fittest" to train their troops. Not only do they go through brutal training (I believe Moore herself compares the Legion training to that of the Ranger training, saying it's either equal to or superior to Ranger training), but afterwards they're sent to the front lines. You start on the front lines and work your way back. You either adapt and learn how to fight or you die. That's that. The result is that every Legionaire has up-close-and-personal, first hand experience with combat, whereas many NCR troopers get 2 weeks training without any actual combat.




Weaponry: Who is the most experienced with them.


Difficult to answer.

The Legion and the NCR prefer two different styles of combat. The Legion prefers to rely on physical strength and mental cunning/strategy in combat, whereas the NCR prefers to learn how to shoot a rifle and they're not afraid to use a few drugs to help in combat (Med-X and Psycho). Both are very good at what they do best. The best way to solve this would be to look at how they do with the OTHER weapon type, but this doesn't work either. Ranger Stella and Ranger Andy provide evidence of at least the Rangers being fairly capable in hand to hand combat to the point where Legionnaires at the fort think no one would be able to 1v1 a Ranger, whereas the Legion is also more than capable of using a rifle, with some of them even criticizing the accuracy of NCR sharpshooters. Furthermore, the NCR has more experience with explosives, whereas the Legion, surprisingly, has some experience with energy weapons.

Can't answer. Both are very good with the weaponry they prefer.


Combat: What Faction is combat ready and best planned for any battle.

Legion

This goes straight to the leadership, imo. If you do a Legion playthrough and look at all the points Caesar has his men posted or wants attack, you can see there's an elaborate plan there. The Legion advances on all fronts, weakening the NCR, and once the battle commences, the Legion strikes from all sides, overrunning some locations and cutting off supply lines/reinforcements in others. The Legion also approaches the Second Battle of Hoover Dam fully aware of what their weakness is: they prefer close-ranged combat. So what do they do? They address the issue and figure out a way to close the gap between themselves and the NCR troops. The NCR on the other hand just waits, relying on that very strength to carry them, getting caught completely by surprise once that advantage has been taken from them.
Not to say the NCR doesn't have good leaders. The NCR owes the first battle to the brilliance of Chief Hanlon. The problem is simply, while the Legion does away with their failed leaders, the NCR goes in the wrong direction, replacing their successful leaders.


[b]Supplied:[/b] What Faction is at times best supplied and healthy.

Tough call, but Legion.

Why? Both seem to have issues with the fact that they have to guard more than one front, but the Legion seems to handle it better. Their troops are fine, they bide their time and live of the land, moving forward and improving their odds. They try to make lemons out of lemonade and do a pretty damn good job of doing so. When the NCR lacks supplies, everything comes to a halt. Nobody advances, but rather everyone stays put and waits.


Tactics: What Faction excels at combat and tactics.

Tie.

The NCR had superior tactics for the first battle, whereas the Legion has better tactics at the second. It might be worth mentioning that the Legion is more cunning however, but that goes more into their spywork rather than their combat. The Legion may generally be able to adapt more often than the NCR, but the NCR still shows it has a couple leaders who share that trait.

Organized: The most orderly fashioned and organized.

Legion.

If a commander says jump, they jump. The NCR barely seems organized at all. It's worth noting that the Legion recruits are noted as falling apart if they lose their commander, but SOME organization is better than no organization at all.

Ranking system: whose works best.


Legion, without a doubt.

One system is completely theoretical, the other is proven in combat. Not a tough decision.

Support: If the Troopers fail what does the factions bring in next.

Neither? Not sure I understand. If we're talking allies, then neither one is incredibly popular with other factions.

Technology:Who is superior.

NCR

They're simply more open-minded about utilizing tech. The Legion will shun chems and rarely use any weaponry that's prone to breaking, utilizing those only for the incredibly important battles. The Legion doesn't have much understanding of technology at all, not understanding a wire tap, some of them needing instruction on how to deactivate a mine.

Arsenal: Who has the best weaponry and armour.

NCR

Same as above, pretty much. Worth noting that the Legion WILL utilize tech when neccesary (Caesar's guards are decked out, Centurions have AMRs for the Hoover Dam battle), but while their arsenal might be more pristine, they would have less experience fixing it back up or rebuilding it.


Technology: Who has the superior pre war tech.


NCR. Again, same as above.

Region: What Homeland is the best protected.


We don't know much, but it sounds like the Legion. The NCR often complains that their roads aren't protected it's plagued with Brahmin barons. The Legion? It sounds like no one dares step out of line, so the roads are safe and there's little to no crime.

Enemies: Who has most control over there territory.

Legion.

In this case, it's important to note that the Legion ARE the aggressors. The Legion doesn't have enemies, THEY are the enemy. They fight offensive wars, not defensive ones. If the Legion loses control of something, then they lose control of a front; they lose control of an attempt to expand. They often fight small tribes who could never pose an immense threat to the Legion. Lanius mentions they may have trouble defending both fronts, but he speaks hypothetically, referring to if the Legion won Vegas and kept pressing westward. The NCR on the other hand seems to have trouble in Baja and we know they've got problems with the Brotherhood of Steel.

Trade: Who has the best trade system.

I'm honestly not quite sure how you want us to define this. The Legion has safer trade routes but they have less to trade, considering they shun a lot of tech and don't accept allies.

[b]Food:
In was faction are people best fed and kept well.

Food-wise? The Legion. They can hunt and survive off the land. The NCR has trouble feeding it's army, both due to problems with supply lines and a lack of resources.
Kept well? This could go either way, considering that the Legion is generally healthier, but the NCR is the one that has doctors available for if someone's in really bad condition.

Structure: Who excels and building.
Money: What currency is the best for the wastes.
Government: Who runs their land best.


These seem subjective to me, but...
NCR has more experience with tech and therefore they're more capable of building.
Money, does it matter?
Government, from an objective standpoint that doesn't look at the policies and government style, the Legion runs smoother.

Vegas: Who should win the battle of Hoover dam?
Best: Whom would best run Vegas
Fiends: What faction would wipe out the Fiends fastest
Love: Whom would the citizens of Vegas like most


All of those are incredibly subjective, so I don't think we can really answer them.
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Kellymarie Heppell
 
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Post » Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:08 pm

You forgot a rule: NCR supporters are not allowed to ignore Legion lore or try to avoid a subject when it doesn't favor their faction.
Cause that's what happens most of the times this discussion is brought up.


:facepalm:
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JUDY FIGHTS
 
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Post » Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:41 am

BROTHERS AND SISTERS OF THE FALLOUT FORUMS THIS MAN AS ATTEMPTED TO BRING AN END TO ONE OF THE MOST SPOKE OF DEBATES IN THIS THREAD
HE WISHES FOR IT TO STOP JUST STOP COMING TO THREADS SUCH AS THIS AND SOON IT WILL ALL END!
FOR THE SAKE OF THE FORUMS
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Arrogant SId
 
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Post » Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:52 am

BROTHERS AND SISTERS OF THE FALLOUT FORUMS THIS MAN AS ATTEMPTED TO BRING AN END TO ONE OF THE MOST SPOKE OF DEBATES IN THIS THREAD
HE WISHES FOR IT TO STOP JUST STOP COMING TO THREADS SUCH AS THIS AND SOON IT WILL ALL END!
FOR THE SAKE OF THE FORUMS

It's the internet, nothing ever ends.
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Anna Kyselova
 
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Post » Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:25 pm

Even the Toaster is more fearsome than NCR and Legion combined.

I piss on this discussion.
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Portions
 
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Post » Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:35 pm

You forgot a rule: NCR supporters are not allowed to ignore Legion lore or try to avoid a subject when it doesn't favor their faction.
Cause that's what happens most of the times this discussion is brought up.

Are we talking FO:NV lore or non-canon Van Buren lore?
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Taylor Tifany
 
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Post » Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:54 am

Again......

Well, both factions need to go drown in Lake Mead.
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Brooke Turner
 
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Post » Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:42 pm

Again......

Well, both factions need to go drown in Lake Mead.


This. Both of them are incredibly flawed in their own right. Neither of them will form lasting, stable governments for pretty stupid reasons (reasons that have been stated in about a thousand different topics so I feel no need to go over them.) Also, these NCR vs Legion threads always reach a point where one side (Legion or NCR) will just start to ignore valid points for the sake of continuing the argument and progressing it into a flame war.
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Eileen Müller
 
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