My first thread...

Which Speech Check system do you prefer? Fallout 3's Chance based system that was affected by both Charisma (?) and Speech or New Vegas' system that was more Speech based?

Personally, I wish that Charisma played more into speech checks in NV. Charisma is pretty garbage in both though.

I prefer FO3's system. In NV, charisma is basically a default dump skill.

x2

NV all the way. I can pass a speech check of 2% with a speech of 5, yet fail a speech check of 85% with 90 speech. Makes no sense. New vegas' makes more sense. Besides, I like how you say things different when you don't meet the requirements.

I think New Vegas' system makes more sense, and tbh I never even realized Charisma HAD an effect in FO3. It's the most frustrating thing in the world to max a skill and STILL lose a speech check due to bad luck. I'm sure we'd all complain if hack and lockpick attempts became luck based, too.

Charisma in NV is fine. It affects the strength of your companions, which to me, is far more valuable than 20% additional chance of success on a speech check I may or may not pass anyways.

Fallout 3's system. There is no failing risk involved in New Vegas as i can see plain as day if i have enough of the skill for it. In case of skills, don't have the option displayed at all if i don't have enough of the skill.

New Vegas however used the speech/skill checks much better than Fallout 3.

NV. I like how if you don't have enough in the required skill for said topic you fail or get a different option. Sometimes you miss out on some loot because of it. After a while in FO3 you become the smartest person in the wasteland and don't fail anything. I'm level 41 in NV and because of Project New Vegas none of my skills are maxed and I'm still not able to pass all speech checks.

I really think that Charisma should have affected all Speech checks in New Vegas.
Just not Fallout 3's way.
Maybe have it so that each CHA decreases the check by 2.5 meaning that a 10 CHA would lower a 100 Speech check to 75.

And it could affect how how +rep and -rep you get from things.
So with 10CHA you can reach Idolized with ease while with 1CHA it takes a looong time to reach Idolized.
The game's factions would of course need a couple of more quests for this to work.

Maybe have some repeatable quests for places, like turning in NCR dog tags to Powder Gangers or going on hunting trips with Sunny Smiles for Goodsprings rep.

CHA should also (no idea if it currently does) affect prices. Couple a high CHA with high Barter and you get incredibly low prices on vendors while being able to sell stuff for incredibly high amount of caps.

CHA could also affect other things, like if you have 4CHA or less then you will get attacked by thugs at Freeside while if you have 5 or more you are never attacked.
Doesn't do that much as thugs are pathetic enemies, so this thing would just be flavor material.

CHA should also have affected how many companions you can get. (Maximum should be 3)
1CHA means you can only get Eddie or Rex but no humanoids.
2CHA means 1 companion, be it robot, dog or humanoid.
4CHA means you can get 1 robot/dog and 1 humanoid companion.
6CHA means you can get both Eddie and Rex and 1 humanoid companion.
8CHA means you can get 2 humanoid companions and either Rex or Eddie.
And 10CHA means you can get 3 humanoid companions.
Course this would need for companions to actually interact with each other in dialogue.

Lots of things could have been done with CHA.
But Fallout 3's speech thingie was horrible.

FO3 used the dice roll. Ironically FOV doesn't. I mucho, mucho prefer a hard number speech / skill check than a dice roll.

@ gabriel77dan : I think that would be a great way to do it. Cha has more meaning and no dice roll. :celebration:

Since convincing someone of something, or pulling off a lie is never really 100% I must say fo3 had a better system. Not as many places to use the system, but a better one none the less.

Fallout 3's since it's more closer to Fallout 1/2's system (oh god, all those reloads to get Enclave Control Company to side with me against Horrigan...)

Yes, but there's another variable in speech checks - the person you're speaking to! Just because you have a high speech skill doesn't mean you can convince everyone.

Of course not, but the issue is, what mini game would they create to reflect player skill?

Science requires skill to access a minigame that requires anolytical thinking: the skill level is nothing but a key to a game that requires player thought. Same with lockpick: it's nothing but a key to a minigame that demands player perception.

What minigame would they do with speech? Different people have different opinions on what the "best" statement is, and people interpret speech options differently. If they were to make it so that speech unlocked a menu of POSSIBLE correct answers of persuasion, people would probably complain about those. One person might complain that the correct answer was a lie and they don't want to lie, another person might complain they misinterpreted one of the speech options, a third person might complain that they chose a wrong speech option because it suggested a possibility of getting an answer/response that they themselves were more interested in, etc.

Speech is kind of hard to categorize with a mini game because there's no such thing as a correct answer. Whereas a failed hack attempt reflects a failure for the player to think anolytically, a failed lockpick attempt reflects a failed amount of perception, a failed speech check in a system like the one I mentioned above would demand a very good character design as far as NPCs go, or else players would complain that it's bull that they're being punished for not understanding the NPC's bland personality enough or for being able to misinterpret the impact of a response.

Thus, until they come up with a fitting minigame to reflect speech, I think the current system is best.

No matter what type of playthrough I am doing I always go with 10 charisma. Also 6 or 7 luck. Speech is mostly the first skill I raise to 100. So far I've only had one occasion that I can remember that requires 100 speech which is the final speech check when you are talking to Legate Lanius .

New Vegas.
Increase your skills you lazy dice-rollin maggots. (need a drill sergeant face here)

And Charisma/Personality is a dump stat in every Bethesda game since Morrowind. They just can't get the diplomacy system right...

I like both equally weird enougb B) .

Charisma is USELESS. Especially if you're taking it just to increase skills.

I've found Charisma to be way more useful in New Vegas than in Fallout 3, I hate metagaming, so I failed speech checks all the time in Fallout 3 with my speech of 100 because I didn't save beforehand and keep spamming it over and over until it got it right, which is what I assume most people did.

The Fallout 3 system was terrible.

>Quick-save
>Fail speech check
>Keep trying until successful

I liked the speech checks in Vegas. Also, the devs have given you a number of alternatives to just speech. So Vegas wins here.

But Charisma is still terrible.

I was well... 'speech' speech checks or 'skill' speech checks?
But if your talking about the method then I'd prefer a hybrid. Each skill should have pass, critical pass, fail and critical fail. Critical fail should have some negitive effect on your character.
Eg:
Player Skill < Skill check: 30% Critical Fail, 40% Fail, 30% pass, 0% critical pass.
Player Skill = Skill check: 20% Critical Fail, 30% Fail, 30% pass, 20% critical pass.
Player Skill > Skill check: 0% Critical Fail, 20% Fail, 50% pass, 30% critical pass.

Of course, that'd be a hell of a lot more work.

For every point of Charisma over 5 all speech checks should be 5% easier. For every point under 5 there should should be the opposite effect.

I mean all checks Inc. Barter, Medicine etc.