You can run non-Steam games through Steam, but Steamworks games are games where you have to have the Steam client operating at all times to play. Which it will do the moment you start the game.

Your Morrowind is not a Steamworks game. While it can be booted up using Steam's non-Steam game integration feature, where the overlay will open up, Steam itself only overlays. By contrast, if you bought Morrowind through Steam, it would be wrapped in. Valve's code and require the client (which is pretty standard).

Some retail games ARE Steamworks games. The only difference here is that you get a disk so you don't have to download the game. But you still have to integrate the game with Steam itself, get a Steam account. The moment the game registers to your Steam account, it's like you bought the game and downloaded it. That's the debate here. Whether or not the game will be completely tied to Steam, rather than versions that are purchased solely through Steam.

Also, I doubt Valve cares abou built-in cheats to single player games. I think you can only get your account banned if you hack the game or cheat in multiplayer.

Do you honestly believe a DRM-less option is even on the table?

I think there is a missunderstanding here. Steam didn't allow to play those games in multiplayer. There is not a multiplayer version of any Elder Scrolls game.

I never had any trouble with Fallout new vegas when I got it, put the disk in, installed it in about 4 minutes and was off playing a moment later. Steam works in Offline mode well for me, never had any problems what so ever.

See post above.

"Remove the impossible and whatever is left, regardless of how absurd, must be the answer."
-Sherlock Holmes

Do I think that a DRM-less version is likely? No. Bethesda is a major publisher now and therefore must do their part to devastate the used game market.

Do I always challenge logical fallacies? Yes.

I agree that there needs to be some form of DRM. I vaguely recall some company a few years ago deliberately put out their anticipated game (it was either an indie game or a similarly-small-scale one) without DRM. And even though it was a great game, it got pirated in ludicrous amounts. So yeah - you need at least a bit of DRM to make the laziest people actually pay for stuff (too much effort & too much feeling of "stealing" to download a crack file).

But something like a disc check is enough.


This whole "has to use Steam" thing isn't really about DRM - it's about removing any chance of used game sales.

Makes sense.

Never seen a store that sells used PC games let alone buy them.

Whatever they had with Oblivion, or even FO3 was fine with me. I just don't really want to deal with Steam.

That is my personal choice. Do as you will.

I just hope Skyrim does not require Steam.

Oh, and by the way, I still have my original copies of Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion. I don't sell them.

I'd love to see Skyrim be Steam-works enabled, rather than Steam-works REQUIRED. While I am a major fan of Steam (as it allows me to, among other things, keep in touch with most of my friends who are out of state), I dislike the idea of limiting peoples options by requiring that internet connection to decrypt the executable. The game can still keep track of achievements (or whatever else you'd want) on its own, Fallout New Vegas certainly did for the majority of achievements through it's challenges. I think registering with Steam should be something you do if you want the extra features (cloud syncing, the social features including achievements linked to your profile, etc.), not something you're required to do, regardless of whether or not you want the additional features provided by the internet requirement.

This is the viewpoint that everybody should have. It's pretty black and white really. It's absurd if you want Steam to be REQUIRED. Those who like Steam should still be able to use it, and those you don't like it/can't don't have to. It doesn't detract from anybody.

And the problem (for me at least) is the mandatory patches and updating. The online activation can be a pain too.

Which reminds me, what do you reckon the size of the NV patch is?

Some do. Though a lot tend to give ludicriously low trade in amounts.

I'd actually prefer it as a Steam game. Achievements are a great deal of fun, and personally I feel the cloud-saving and game downloading functions of steam are worth the tradeoffs. (Bloated software and long downloads)

If you're worried about that stuff you can always use offline mode though. And Steam is a hell of a lot better than most DRMs, it actually gives you a reason to pay for the game as oppose to just punishing people who DID pay for the game. IMO its a great system and I applaud any devs who use it. Without Steam Consoles would have even more of the PC gaming market and no one wants that!

I'll give a more recent example: http://www.bluesnews.com/s/122119/the-witcher-2-patched-drm-removed removed it's DRM. And it sold exceptionally well http://n4g.com/news/81964/the-witcher-sells-a-million-copies-worldwide
Oh, and keep in mind that it is PC exclusive title for now, so thous are PC only sales.

I hope it will be activable on steam (i prefer steamworks anyway)

Isn't the CE for PC Games for Windows? I don't know much about PC gaming but doesn't that mean its not going to be steam exclusive?

Not neccesarily.

Games For Windows just means its designed to run on Windows.

Games For Windows LIVE is a different thing and what box art we've seen lacks the little blue LIVE logo that would indicate GFWLs presence.

Only 3 months left and they still have not confirmed whether the game uses steamworks from the physical retail version huh...

As for automatic updates, that can be turned off.
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/iU1zO.jpg[/IMG]
As for offline mode, as long as you've connected at least once in the past you can run steam completely offline forever. If you have steam, go try it. (Kill your internet connection, launch steam, it'll go in offline mode. launch a steamworks game. It would launch as normal. I just retested this with Counterstrike Source with bots.)

Now try staying offline (as in, do not attempt to connect to Steam at all) for a few weeks. You will be forced to go online at the regularly scheduled update check for the Steam platform and you will be unable to remain offline or access your offline games until the platform update (if one is available) has been downloaded and installed. Now imagine that you have no internet access and had to pack up your PC and take it somewhere in order to activate the game originally and now have to do that again just because Steam updated some aspect of their platform that you cannot even use. Now imagine that you proceed to smash your head into a blunt object in frustration.

Please note the bold above^ You cannot turn off platform updates or update checks.

I REALLY hope not, that is I hope Steam is merely optional for those who like it. I'm, suffice it to say, not one of them.

Steam will not be touching either of my rigs with a 10' pole...

That's bad. But if the key wasn't used you should at least be able to sell the copy on eBay or something like that. Or maybe to a friend, who is not as 1995 as you. ;D

That's just not true.
If you are caught cheating, you get a VAC-ban, which only means, that you won't be able to play on VAC-secured servers.

No.

There's always somebody who comes with the "Automatic updates can be turned off". The first time you pop that game in and install it. It updates. I don't mean to sound rude, but in Steam threads there's always somebody that comes with this.

There's also always a group that does the "Offline mode" argument. Once again, same point.

EDIT: Also always a group saying how the anti Steam group is outdated. It's been stated earlier in this thread, if (forced) Steam is the future, then PC gaming is definitely going downhill.