What are the perks because things like damage modifyers or stagger an opponent could just be done with hands instead are there perks in the tree that could only be done with a dagger for instance because we know an axe gets a different perk than say a mace and can cause bleed maybe hands get differances like that ?or am i thinking wrong and there are both axe and mace perks not just one that has a different effect.Say critical blow made up i dont know the perks but it with an axe causes bleed with a mace does something else with hands does yet another thing?If perks are more of the generic type i think it could work for all weapons even hands .
Ahh I found these these but there arent discriptions for all of them.im sure there are more.

One-Handed Prowess- one HANDED weapons other than daggers do 40% more damage.
Hack and Slash- Attacks with war axes cause extra bleeding damage. Requires One-Handed 30
One-Handed Tactics
Stand and Deliver
Savage Blows
Charge
Bone Breaker
Bladesman

honestly who used H2H to pwn Dagoth in MW or the deadra in OB

WHO

not me thats for sure.

I think hand to hand has become non-lethal, since we can gave non lethal bar fight. I thin the "hand to hand monk" was the idea that you could have a religious character that would never actually kill someone, simple knock them out and escape.

It would be nice if there was a lethal hand to hand perk. I suppose it can eventually be modded in... but, seriously? Someone is going to die from internal bleeding if they're punched a million times in the stomach. People die all the time from being beaten to death. A 300 pound viking IS going to kill you with his fists if you let him or if you svck in a fight...

Im assumeing you can kill people with youre hands if they say you can play as a monk effectively maybe just in bar brawls people get knocked out first or something i really dont know though.

HAHA not me ill love some tavern brawls though but im just trying to figure out how it may work id never choose my hands over a damn axe lol.

One would think that... but they also said that hand to hand fighting is non lethal. That totally contradicts the statement that hand to hand monks are viable. Maybe the non-lethality is just in bar brawls, you may be correct there.

Ya could be after enuff shots a guy would scream uncle as well who knows .

They only mentioned non-lethal in bar brawls, as far as I have seen. I have seen little to no information as to how H2H works outside of bar brawls (or even in them, really, it's just "bar brawls exist and are non-lethal").

remember that bar fights and bar scenes are new, so this may be an important aspect of balanced, fun gameplay.

also, fighting dragons with your bare hands would be dumb.

Only thing i heard about h2h was from the hands ons and they said it felt like it had weight and you could throw youre self off balance by swinging wildy at nothing.Thats how i understood it anyhow.

Well I'd go as far as to say that fighting a Dragon period is a terrible idea lol.

if you are playing a hand to hand character, that could be the pinnacle of his career

LOVE your sig =]
On topic,non lethal fist fight is good, cant wait for bar brawls

This. But not the touch spells part, that's a different mechanic.

I always wanted to create a mage who travels extremely lightly, looking very fragile,....yet can be powerful with hand-to-hand by use of spells, or a glove enchantment. The closest to get to that is by mods, and it looks like it'll be that way yet again.

At least it'd make more sense than being able to take down an Ordinator completely bare with no magic >.> (Not that that's not extremely entertaining on occasion )

have you tried Duke Patrick's Combat Magic?

He has an interesting spell that gives your fists magical powers, but still makes use of hand to hand skill for attacks. (I guess it could be considered similar to bound dagger in terms of the mechanics, but the animations are very cool and make combat more strategic. Also his shield spells are directional, so you have to use them strategically.)

Can't say that I have, but I'll look it up, thanks.

But your short description does sound a bit like what I was trying to explain. I just wish this sort of thing didn't always have to be added with mods

You can get the general idea here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTOynB6Z-Rw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LLGoyUMX2I&feature=related

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1170048-relz-duke-patricks-combat-magic-ii/