When you look at see that the Brotherhood only get beat by Veteran NCR Rangers, and those are busy in Baja for most of the game. With that noted, yes the loss of one soldier is devasting, but the loss of an Officer by the NCR would be just as bad. Can you picture Camp McCarran's fate if Hsu died? Given the BOS's Power Armor and superior tactics, along with the massive size of the Mojave, they could easily down the NCR in many areas, further weaking them. For instance, if the BOS attacked the NCR at Primm they would definitely win. Hell one Palidian with a Gues Rifle and good position could do that. Or better yet, an attack on Helios One would garner a massive gain for the BOS. Not only would they get their glorifited artilley they'd also get a great position to crush NCR supply lines along 95, breaking Forlorn Hope.

Also am I the only one that has a hard time believing the Legion could break the BOS? Seriously they don't have any effective anti-Power Armor weapons..anyway topic started. Discuss.

Except by this point they cant really afford to lose ANY more troops, and if they did attack the NCR it would give away their bunker and they wouldn't have any where else to retreat to when things went south. Not to mention the Legion would also be breathing down their necks the very second they did beat the NCR, if they even could beat them, which I dont know if they could or not.

Edit: Didnt see the last part of your post, yes the Legion could beat the Brotherhood, end of story.

The Legion can beat the Brotherhood (or anyone for that matter) because war is their business: it's what they do and it's what they know. They have -THE- best tactics of the Mojave, their training is hands-on training at the front lines of their battles with survivors being promoted and moving towards the back lines, and their main strength is that they're completely self-sufficient. If a Legionnaire jumps and suprises a Paladin, charging at him before he can react, he can easily wrestle the Paladin's laser from his hands, utilize it himself or throw it away. The Legion has the advantage that they can continue to fight even when unarmed; a Paladin without his gauss rifle is just a giant tin can. Other than that, the Legion does utilize tech, they just don't like to be totally reliant on it. The entire Praetorian guard is decked out with Ballistic fists, which are sure to punch a hole in anything.

[If the Courier is not involved]
Seeing how NCR in the area is focused on The Fiends and Caesar's Legion (True to Caesar), it's definitely possible for the BoS to take Helios, Camp Golf, and/or McCarran. Overrun by raiders, Legion (I would assume they would take notice of the BoS attacking and move forward as well), and BoS: the NCR would most likely retreat and gather reinforcements. I would imagine Caesar's Legion then takes the dam and (possibly) New Vegas. The problem with The Brotherhood is that they have few people, and since they are against recruiting outsiders I doubt they would expand in any form. So with The Legion (who has help from Great Khans and The Omertas) in control of the dam and maybe New Vegas, they would be up against the Brotherhood.

...and that's where I'm not sure...

It's true that the Legion would have a hard time fighting Power Armor equipped, Energy Weapon wielding Paladins. It would be foolish for Caesar to attack the Brotherhood because (if they did manage to beat them) they would be suffering heavy causalities and the NCR could come in again soon with reinforcements.

Either way, if the Brotherhood does decide to attack the NCR, then they would have to deal with the Legion. So I doubt the Brotherhood could fight both armies without having to retreat back to their bunker. I think their only chance of survival is settling an agreement with the NCR.

The Brotherhood was primarily beaten by the NCR's numbers, which they were unable to overcome. I don't recall Vet Rangers being present at the battle of Helios one.

Its true that the Brotherhood could probably retake Helios one, and for a time, be a torn in the side of the NCR. But eventually such an attack would end just as badly for the Brotherhood, and probably get them all killed.

If they take back Helios One, and the NCR loses at Hoover Dam, then the Legion sweeps in and destroys the weakend BOS soldiers (yes the Legion can defeat the Brotherhood).

If they take back Helios One, and the NCR wins at Hoover Dam, then the NCR can focus on the Brotherhood, and bam, loss for the Brotherhood.

If neither the NCR nor Legion wins, and House does, then they are screwed as well. The only way the Brotherhood can really win, is if they form an alliance with he NCR, or if they take advantage of the aftermath of a chaotic New Vegas.

He means NPCWars' video of the NCR vet rangers vs. the BOS paladins. Statistically they beat them, though I hear the BOS Paladins had their stats greatly improved in a recent patch, so that may not be the case anymore.

They might have been there. They were adapted into the NCR a few years before the battle.

I'm quite sure there were no Vet Rangers, or Rangers of any kind at the Helios One battle.

The Legion due to it's sheer size "could" beat the BOS, but they'd sustain HEAVY losses doing it. It'd almost not be worth it.

Realstically I see a path forward for the Brotherhood without the courier, one in which they come out on top. After this I'll respond directly to everyone.

First and foremorst the BOS uses the desturction of the I-15 supply lines as an the moment to tip things in their favor. It doesn't help them at all to let the NCR OR Legion OR House OR Benny (seeing a pattern?) to get ready. The funny thing about Helios One is that it wouldn't have to be a battle and would actually be a decoy with only the soldiers outside killed. The NCR would probably redeploy more troops to Helios from the substation and Forlorn Hope. The NCR's positions would weaken for Helios and logically Oliver would probably think it was too. In fact the real goal would be the Substation, with only a small amount of troops and large amount of potential that station holds. If the substation was destroyed House's plans fall apart compelety and McCarran along with the Gun Runners would lose electricity. Seriously there are only 8 troopers, there. Using the ratio of 10 to 1, one Brotherhood member could easily destroy Vegas' and the NCR's electricity usage and probably send House into a coma; especially if they're sleeping.

Now many of you are thinking, but now House is gone, his robots can't get maintained, and the NCR is weaker than ever with many of the troops it needs guarding a solar station with 1 percent efficency. With the Battle near, the BOS would then shift gears to the Legion. The Legion will now win the Battle but it's best for everyone if their best members are killed off before hand. The whole area of Southern Nevada is open range with Ranger Station Charlie gone. BOS scouts would have an easy time discovering the Legion slave camp and it's eradication would be a message to Caeser. The Legion would lose some of its best scouts and slavers, and it's reach into California and beyond would halt. This would give the BOS more time after the NCR loses to stay untracked by the Legion.

Pass this point the BOS would be able to roam everything on Highway 95 south of Novac and strave the NCR to submission. Neither the NCR or Legion would have control over this activity and they could even attack NCR troops at Searclight if deemed neccescricy. At about this time the Battle would start, and due to the Legion's tactics they would win, but it wouldn't last. In the fog of war the Brotherhood could easily attack centurions and other commanding officers on the march to Vegas, Caeser wouldn't expect the BOS to even be concerned and while his forces wouldn't be destroyed they would be weakened. By the time the Legion made it to Vegas, Caeser or Lanius would of been killed (in a suprise attack that started the attacks) and the Legion forces would be so disorganized from lack of leadership the March into Vegas would go far from easily. When you add the Rangers killing many of the commanders, the averages troops in the Dam killing some commanding officers, the many deaths of grunts in the process, and THEN the unexpected hit and run attacks on the way to Vegas, and you have a war falling apart.

It should be noted also that due to the BOS's long range weapons and ammo compared to the Legion they would have the upper hand. Hell even the fact that most of the Legion forces would of used their ammo at the Battle for the Dam and you have a bad situation when going against the BOS. Talk to Caeser, he says the BOS could be beaten yes, but at massive loses of men. In this case the men lost aren't going to be grunts that don't matter, it's going to be the 20 year and 30 year veterens dying in the sand. Add to all of that the Kings who all die to the last man, the regular citizens who would defend, remaining NCR forces still attacking, and the owners of the Tops and a win is no were near certain. Now add a dead Caeser or better Lanius, most of the officers corp dead, and no ammo left. Wtih contiuned gorilla tactics in the 24 hours afterwards and leaving Hidden Valley full of traps, the Legion would be forced to retreat or die to the last man.

Now add to this that the Paladians are the baddest [censored] walking with the patch and without the courier Hidden Valley wouldn't of been destroyed. According to the ending with the Legion vs. BOS they get routed because they take position within Helios one and get routed back to Hidden Valley.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout:_New_Vegas_endings

With them not just staying at Helios but attacking the Legion they'd break it. By the end of it all, Caeser, Lanius, and all of the top would be dead. The grunts would be ammoless and helpless, and all of the good scouts and info getters closest to Hidden Valley dead. BOS victory achieved.


Meh not really, read what I just wrote and listen to what Caeser says about it. Or how Yes Man considers them the biggest threat, or how House won't even except them existing.


Ok just stop there. The Legion are the best at raids and melee...that's it. In the scenario above that doesn't help anything. Also when was the last time a Paldian let a dude wearing a [censored] helmet and red dress sneak up on him? We're talking about the most battle hardened warriors here, not some random guy with a Laser Weapon. On the March to Vegas the Legion is weakened with it's top officers dead, and out of long range weapons really. It would just be a matter of picking the rest of one by one. [censored] Boone was able to almost kill Lanius in one of the game endings and that's just one First Recon member. Picture Palidans with the same goal and you have accomplishment. With no commanding officers left for many units the grunts wouldn't know what to do, just like in the First Battle.


Or maybe not, just take a look above.


Only if they don't go with my stragety :celebration:

That was my impression as well. From what I gathered from the NCR/Brotherhood soldiers, the BOS was simply overwhelmed by grunt troops that just kept coming (House gave the statistics as 15 NCR soldiers to every 1 BOS Paladin). Helios One also proved to be a poor defensive position.

Yeah I agree, what I was trying to say is that every BOS soldier very strong and that when you match them up in a NPCWar video pre-Patch they ONLY lose to NCR vets. Post Patch they're the best [censored] walking.

How the HELL can you call the BOS the most battle-hardened warriors in the Mojave when they're sitting in a Bunker? Meanwhile the Legion is fighting the NCR relentlessly and given the command "come home victorious, or not at all." They HAVE to win to survive because they're tossed to the front lines. They build their strength based on raw first-hand experience in combat. I don't care what the hell kind of training any other group has: how are you supposed to beat hands-on front line combat as your training? It doesn't get any tougher because your life IS actually on the line.
Besides, look at Centurion armor. They build it from the armor of fallen enemies. You can see pieces of intact power armor in there. Who do you think that's from? Furthermore, you can quest for the BOS and discover they underestimate Caesar's Legion severely. They're so blinded by their love of tech that they can't comprehend how Caesar's Legion could actually be a threat; their spies comment on how shocked they are when the Legion is victorious in areas.



Source? The only top ranking officer who's "dead" is Graham, and there's no lack of long range weapons. They NEVER mention a lack of long range weapons, and they're capable of providing their men with AMRs, Brush Guns, marksman carbines and sniper rifles. Just because they prefer melee combat doesn't mean they're inept in their skill with firearms. Hell, they're even interested in purchasing energy weapons.
And you wanna talk about missing top ranking officers? You're aware the BOS just lost their Elder and they're in dire need of more men, right?



Boone spat tobacco in his eye. Just because it's a headshot doesn't mean it's deadly.




The game actually doesn't specify that they'd take heavy losses. It DOES specify that the Legion would take heavy losses to the Boomers though. Knowing that they bothered to mention it for the Boomers and not for the BOS makes me think it'd be easier for the Legion than most people seem to think.

OP, I'm getting quite a bit of bias towards the BoS, yes they are strong, especially in my lore-modded game, but they aren't a power player anymore, there is only a handful of them left in the Mojave, just enough to hold a bunker. NCR would can them, Legion would can them.

It's called virtual reality, which works so well Boomers can fly 200 year old planes, and Palidians can have more experience and be more deadly than every other group. Plus it's not as if the BOS doesn't still have experience from before the lockdown. I want to see where you can prove the VR sims aren't as good as real life training.


Yes, but if those BOS back east are as dumb as the ones in the Mojave sure they would die from the Legion. The only way to victory and domination for the BOS is for them to go with my plan.



Never said they need, they'll lack ammo. After the largest battle in human history since the Great War AND most administrative officers dead the they're REALLY going to lack ammo. Plus with such a heavy weight put on melee most won't care. You see the Legion has enough ammo to deal with the NCR and a few problems, but haven't added the BOS into the mix. So less ammo, plus less administrators, plus BOS, plus long walk = bad day.
Concerning the officers.

Okay let's use some common sense.
A. Many of the troops used in the Battle of the Hoover Dam are Field Commanders, otherwise known as Centurions. These guys run the overall stragetic outlook for the Legion and are the most experienced. Guess who Lanius throws on the front lines during the Second Battle? His Field Commanders. Now do you remember what happened the last time the Legion lost a large number of higher experienced troops? They lost due to disorganizatiion and the trap. This time with so many Rangers at the Dam, plus MANY NCR grunts, quite a few of Caeser's best men are going to die, even if the Dam is won. That said in the short term organization is going to hard, espeically the long march to Vegas.
B. Camp Golf will fall also, but it's not as if the Ranger's tactics have changed, which is killing high ranking officers first. In fact since it will be a basic fight to the death and the Veteren Rangers win in all fights against an even number of Centurions, when you add in the bonus they get for sniping...and MANY if not most top officals and commanders will die. You can't just defeat the Veteren Rangers without breaking a lot of eggs.


Who cares? If the BOS let the NCR take the steam out of the Legion it's just easy pickings past that point they don't need a lot of men or women. With this plan they do a min. amount of fighting too, all they have to do is hit and run attacks on top members on the journey to Vegas, the rest falls apart.


Boone lead a one man attack that almost killed the man in chrage of the Legion's military and he's not the most experienced or best trained fighter in the Waste. You know who are? Palidians.

Go talk to Caeser, it does. Or use common sense. Why else would YesMan/House call them the biggest threat.

Really in this scenario the BOS just takes the role of Mr.House/Yes Man. They let the NCR get crushed by the Legion, the throw a monkey wrench into Lanius' plans. After the NCR basically leaves the Legion at it's weakest point ever, all the BOS has to do is blow some air to make it all come crashing down.

The Brotherhood is dead. Deader than the Enclave.

Are you seriously trying to argue that virtual reality is better than reality as a form of training?

Why don't you go amass an army of Call of Duty players and attack Russia? Tell me how it works out.




This is complete fantasy with nothing to support your claims.



A. Have you played the freaking Legion/NCR playthrough?

NCR playthrough you fight through hordes of recruits with a Centurion here and there, then you run into several just before you reach Lanius' camp itself. Legion playthrough you encounter ONE centurion, standing safely in the back, commanding his squad, telling you he's sending his men down under inside the dam. House/Yes Man quests you're essentially leeching off the NCR's work in combat (you're skipping the entire fight underground and headed straight towards the Legate's camp), which is why you see them much quicker.
And have you paid attention to the lore? The Legion was NOT disorganized, nor have they ever been. Every single example we see in the Mojave suggests they're the most organized military in the Mojave. The Legion lost because of Chief Hanlon's brilliant plan and that alone; you can find quotes from several characters in game stating that the NCR were getting their asses handed to them UNTIL the trap turned the tides. The NCR Rangers were the only group that was still in good standing and hadn't suffered significant casualties by the time the Legion hit the trap, the one exception being the NCR 1st Recon, who were with the NCR Rangers as they gunned down the remnants of the trap. This is why Oliver is envious of the Rangers and wants to outshine them with his Heavy Troopers: because in the first battle, the NCR army did horribly with the Rangers being the saving force behind the battle.
And why the hell would you base the results of the Second battle on those of the first? Chief Hanlon's cunning and the effectiveness of the Rangers was absolutely pivotal in the NCR victory; in the Second Battle, the Chief isn't in charge, Graham isn't in charge of the Legion and the Rangers are being downplayed by Oliver. If you do a Legion playthrough and actually pay attention to the tactics of the Legion shown in the Second Battle, you can see they're CLEARLY more organized and would have the upper hand, if not for the Courier.

B. "Camp Golf will fall also, but it's not as if the Ranger's tactics have changed, which is killing high ranking officers first." Again, source? Where the hell does anyone say that's the ranger's tactics? The most we have is that sharpshooters have attempted to assassinate Graham. Well wtf, Caesar attempted to assassinate Kimball. That doesn't mean that Centurions typically go for the high ranking officers first.
And again, go do a Legion or NCR playthrough and pay attention to how the Legionnaires fight the battle. They're not idiots; they know the NCR's best troops are their snipers, so what do they do? They take the battle to the tunnels, ducking in doorways and jumping out at the enemy whenever they approach, effectively taking away their distance advantage.




Ok so wait a minute....

You just got done fantasizing about how supposedly, a lot of commanders are going to die in the Legion, making this the MAIN part of your argument as to why the Legion would be weakened, and yet your response to the FACT that the BOS recently lost their elder with many of their members questioning the capabilities of their new one is "who cares?"

WTF????




Again, where are you getting that Boone "almost killed the Legate." That's not written anywhere. It says he was strung up on a cross, and Boone is Fallout's Chuck Norris.



WTF??? How can I talk to Caesar about a game end description? The game's over! You can whine and say he should kill the BOS and not send you, and he says he COULD, but would rather sustain minimal losses. That's based on his cautious judgement. The actual game ending where the Legion confronts the BOS makes no mention of them suffering heavy losses, whereas it DOES if the Legion fights the Boomers. That to me says that the Boomers are stronger than the BOS and that the Legion would take out the BOS easier than people think.

House and Yes Man call the BoS their biggest threat because they're the most likely to be hostile towards House/Yes Man. They're tech-zealots and House rules his society with robots, so of course they'd fight him. Again, with my above point, the endings seem to suggest the Boomers are stronger than the BoS, and yet House doesn't fear the Boomers. Why? Because the Boomers are isolationist: House only fears the BoS because they'd undoubtedly wage war with him.

Not quite as dead as the Enclave, they are far more thoroughly dead.

People in the Mojave chapter need to [censored] more, it's the only way they'll get more people. Sure, it'll take time, but it works!

You know they did actual things before they went to sit in a bunker, right? Every paladin is well trained AND experienced in combat. Sitting around for a few years does not take away your experience.

As for paladins being but a tin can if someone takes away their lazer rifle... just look at Veronica. And that is assuming a squishy legionaire can even wrestle that rifle from the grasp of the power armor.

If the BoS would accept new recruits, they would dominate.. Especially if the NCR lost the Dam, and Kimball was Assassinated, it would cause an uproar in California.. If the BoS would allow to recruit again, but not give it's "Conscripts" access to power armor till they were recognized as potential Knights, or carried out enough missions to deem themselves worthy. It doesn't matter if EVERY BoS wore power armor.. all it matters is numbers for them at this point there Cache of weapons is astronomical compared to other basic factions(Gun Runners probably still have a Higher number) but giving them a special... brand of Combat armor with the Logo of the BoS would start to show that they can have a "show of force" maybe have a Knight be in charge of 12-15 Troops/Conscripts, and have a Paladin watch over a squad of 6 knights and his Troopers. I would imagine there training being tough, and I'm sure there are more then enough Wastelanders up for it...

in regards of Fallout 3. I HIGHLY Doubt the BoS could of held on to the Citadel if it wasn't for new recruiting. The Outcasts did hit them where it hurt, but they did have enough "Recruits" to sponge up alot of the Assault.. that and liberty prime Saving them..

New Recruits = New Hope

Isolation = Desolation

I respectfully disagree.

I don't think the VR training the BOS use is the same as sticking your cod disk in and playing against a few online players. We saw the VR training in OA for Fallout 3 it's quite advanced and would train people well. As for the comment of no proof that vet rangers would shoot officers, it's common ptractice for sharshooters to go for officers to cause panic and caos within the ranks,. it's been like that for well over 100 years. I'm not Sure if the BOS could defeat the Legion even after that well thought out scenario but I do agree with them being battle hardened to hell from before locked in the bunker and the VR training.

I do believe that if the BoS could defeat the Legion, they would have to Recall ALL there troops, and take key locations. The Legion is "Tired" after they defeat the NCR at the dam, Lanius even says so... but like FalloutBob said, they are running low on Ammunition... Which is most likely true due to the Fact the Legion brought there "A Game" to the fight and gave it everything they had... I don't believe they over prepared, and also with all the "Battle Hardened" Centurions coming from the Arizona are, they are most likely very fatigued after the long journey from Flagstaff, then to the Mojave then to fight at Hoover Dam... They are extremely fit, but I would think there minds and body's would be tired.. That and there Medical Supplies are most likely running Dangerously low from trying to Heal anyone who is injured.

If the BoS would have to strike very fast after then fight at the Dam if they wanted to defeat the Legion to the point where they would have to take an Alternate route around the Mojave if they wanted to press on to California. The Legions sheer numbers would over whem the BoS but causing massive casualties would cause the Legion to Slow wayyyy... down maybe even have to pull back from hoover dam if the BoS lead a Full out Fight against the Legion.