Thats absolutely nothing like increasing speed.

I hear where you're coming from but it's not quite the same thing, to my mind. It's effective and it does serve the same purpose (assuming whoever you're chasing down has less sprint than you), but still you get my meaning.

By the way, I actually don't mind that much. I'm going to buy Skyrim and it'll likely be my favorite Elder Scrolls game yet (although I've only played Morrowind and Oblivion), but I do miss some of the older features.

Health regeneration is [censored] to my mind, but beyond that, this attribute thing is my only other complaint.

Those two points are hardly deal breakers for me though.

i would have kept them in, that would be the smart thing

honestly keeping it like oblivion is better then getting rid of attributes, it was extremly simplistic, and got the job done. maybe add skill checks and things like that, and make the +5 random (or just give you a random number of attribute points). but, for the love of god, i would never condense them or get rid of them, it is an out-right stupid thing to do, it dosn't make the game more accesible it makes it more annoying <_<

What do you do in Baldurs Gate? You press buttons and watch things happen. What do you do in Mario Bros.? I dont think you need to answer that. Besides the comparison of something like Baldurs Gate and Mario is just stupid, theyre two completely different games with nothing in common except that you watch things happen after pressing buttons. Ever since you've come to this thread you haven't contributed to how you would of improved the system, just said that the game is less complex now and "easier for noobs to pick up and go".

Every attribute with racial minima/maxima. Bonus points selectable at character gen. Extra points at level up, on sliding scale, e.g. one strength or 0.5 endurance or 0.2 intelligence, then adjusted for race multipliers. Add the increase at level up for HP, MP and stamina, again racial, so an Orc gets more health, but less magicka, than an Elf choosing the same.

Luck - out the window. If you survive, you were lucky, if you die, guess what?
Intellligence - hardly variable at all. Effect on enchanting, spell creation, spell casting, magicka, speech.
Personality - hardly variable at all. Effect on speech, barter.
Willpower - slightly variable. Effect on spell resistance, magicka, magicka regeneration, small effect on health and stamina.
Agility - slightly variable. Effect on dodge, thieving skills, climbing, critical chance.
Endurance - slightly variable. Effect on hit points, stamina, physical resistances.
Speed - variable to racial maxima Effect on movement, dodge, attack speed, stamina.
Strength - most variable attribute. Effect on melee and bow damage, stamina, critical chance, knockdown chance.

You can practice to get stronger and faster, but start stupid, stay stupid.

This pretty much nails it. And I'd also get behind endurance retroactively determining health so players don't feel obligated to grind endurance up as quickly as possible. This part though:

Why scrap luck?


EDIT: Oh right, greater influence on crit effects like knockdowns and staggers.

I think the attribute stystem svcked and I am glad they got rid of it, it was such a kill joy because in order to max out your character you would only be able to train certain skills to certain levels

We still need luck.

In a podcast interview with Todd back in February, he stated that the "280+ perks" were including all the ranks as well.

Across 18 skills, that could significantly reduce the amount of perks per skill that's available.

That's a problem of the levelling system, not attributes per se.

@Xarnac, it could be argued that agility could cover a lot of variables that luck covers; not being where a killing blow would have landed, getting that critical hit etc.

Me all i want is more racial diversity that could be done with or without attributes.I prefer the sprint stamina system over the run like a deer and leap tall buildings just my personal taste and thats all i see that will be missing from the past game they like me must feel the majority of people would prefer the sprint system.But instead of say makeing the bosmer start with a little more archery and ending up just as good as the orc who practices it id prefer.The bosmer gets a larger bonus to his archery perk so instead of 20% damage maybe he get 30%.While the orc does better when he picks two handed.The orc or nord should also get a small bonus to say an encumberance calculating forumula while the kahjiit get and some extra stamina if he picks it on level up.Even in this system what i want out of attributes could be done behind the curtain and through perks .To me its not the system but how it functions we can all figure out how to manipulate a new system if it gives us what we want is what matters to me .I could not care less how its packaged .That said if it isnt like how id prefer it doesnt matter much it isnt a game breaker for me buy the time i put 100 hours in and start another character it will be more about the decisions i make and my play style than can i carry a bit more as ill have probably forgotten if my orc could carry 20 more lbs any how.So its not a huge deal to me but it would be a nice touch.

Im talking about all chance. From enemies misfiring, more likely to flee, better results in 'dice roll' situations etc. basically the ability to make the luck build(s). Which were viable in previous ES games, namely Dagger and Morrow. I'm cool with expanding agility, but we should still have luck IMO.

Attributes

Baseline for Chars, variation for characters.
Strenght - Affects the amount of weight you can carry, compunds with endurance. as well as the amount of base damage you can deal

• Buffs against stat reducing attacks/critical strikes/wounding when compunded with willpower
  
• Augments the blocking skill vs the raw strenght of opposing attacks
  
• Strength Higher than lets say 80 would come as an auto Demoralize effect and would boost speechcraft in intimidation.
  
• 1 point of strength equals 10 weight. If you have 30 strength that equals 300 pounds of Encumberence.

Intelligence-Affects the amount of Magicka your spells cost, compunds with personality
? For every point of INT your spell cost would be lowered by 2 points. No spell cost can go below 5 points or 10 points as we don't want 1 magic point lightning spells.
?Effects the amount of spells you can learn, frequency to learning them and casting them, higher instances allow for more complex spells all the way up to rituals and summoning pacts, the Higher your INT the more options availible with certian summonings


Endurance- Determines the majority of how much physical resistance availible to your character, how quickly your stamina drains

• Along with Strength would determine Carrying threshold as well as how much you can carry before your Stamina is significantly drops
  
• Lenght your character can sprint as well and how long they can run without rest
  
• Increases your resistance against Natural stat damaging effects like weather, Poison, Wouding.

Willpower- Affects Magicka Regeneration as well as functioning under debuffs, curses, an negetive stats.
?For every 5 points of Willpower your magicka would regenerate 1 magicka point faster. Stamina would deal with Stamina Regeneration.
?effects how quickly you are able to restore stamina as well as how quickly it diminishes during a fight.
?boosts against state debuffs caused by magical debuffs and natural means
?also effects the damage dealt by magical attacks, their effectiveness, and how often you can use them without tiring.


Dexterity (agility) - Chief of strenous movement and acrobatics, Dexterity governs your characters full range of movements in Heavy, Medium, Light and no armor

• Allows for excessive moments such as Dodging, rolling, Climbing
  
• Aids in parrying and blocking with -weapons-
  
• High instances allow for jumping from significant height without damage
  
• being flexible in taking damage as opposed to strenght making you a sponge for damage.

Personality 100 makes no sense, what am I 100 good? or 100 bad, I would put this on a scale from -100 Pure freaking evil and Amoral 0 utterly neutral and 100 unfallible divinity, of course getting getting to -100, 0, and 100 would be nigh impossible unless you -really- worked for it and kept true to the concept. for example I can be 50 on the scale but still be ruthless or -40 and still have -some- compassion, I rather the bar be an indicator of the Character instead of something defining them point blank.

Intelligence would also be a bar from 0-100 but 30 intelligence doesnt mean my character is stupid, rather how much they can store in memory such as how many spells they can hold in memory, how well they can record information in the journal (fairly simple not a rewrite of multiple quests, just omissions of certain information) how adept they are at speechcraft and *catching on* to certain tid bits of information when speaking to other chars.

Speed im not sure about I'd hope some kind of synergy between endurance, Agility and strenght would govern speed.....so a character with 70 endurance, 70 Agility and 50 Strenght would be faster than a char with 80 strenght 60 endurance and 40 Agility

also since there is a soft cap for levels, why not make a soft cap for Attributes? I rather not a character scoring 100 in everything unless the -PLAYER- works for that, wether it be Magical Augments, potions, Items etc etc, but essentially a Orc wouldn't easilty reach Dexterity 100 as a Bosmer would same as the bosmer wouldn't reach 100 in strenght as a Nord would. again, soft cap, not a hard cap, this coupled with Stat fluctuations, getting jailed, Injuries, etc etc would ensure the player character is Dynamic, and not All skills all Attributes 100 for the rest of the game.

Attribute affinity would vary from race to race, so as a nubile Bosmer, you have every right to fear that Hulking nord dual wielding two battle axes.


its now 8 folded into three :teehee: !!!
...No......they are status bars, like they have ALWAYS been, like i said in another thread, your telling me when I lose my heath bar I get weaker in strenght Ah wishful thinking, oh and when Stamina goes to 0 during a fight, all of a sudden I have to drop EVERYTHING im carrying? no we probably won't see anything like that, it would rage players too much, as a specific post on the first page stated.

Its Redundant! and the perks make it Redundant!
Um...As far as I've read, Perks are for skills, Perks are always good, Perks are not weaknesses or shortcomings, perks do not Degrade, Perks add not take away, Perks which again have been stated for skills, last I checked there are no Endurance skill, or Health Skill, do not add health or Increase resistances to weapons or anything of that matter. and please stop telling people they haven't played the game so they wouldn't know but at the same time telling them Perks do this and That When YOU haven't played the game either.

by removing it and adapting a system like in Gothic :confused:

What Gothic 4? or Gohtic 3 because in Gothic 3 there was strenght, and there was a noticable difference with Str 100 were I couldnt budge an Orc weight stone and Str 400 which allowed me to pick it up with Might AND gain rep with the Orcs. if your talking about Gothic 4, then well...to me thats a Poor game...very poor game.

What a great topic.

I'd start by dropping HP, and merging MP and fatigue. Now casting a spell drains fatigue like swinging a sword. I'd add a stat "concentration" which just limits how many Constant Effect spells you can maintain and still pull off combat maneuvers. Almost all spells would be CE if possible (toggle-able). Even destruction spells (don't "throw" a fire ball, just add heat over time.) Concentration doesn't regen like the others, it reflects exactly what your doing at any given time. So if 1 spell takes 50% and you toggle it off, you instantly regain that 50% concentration.

Instead of HP per character, I'd have HP per "part" or object. Your brain, heart, guts, liver, joints, limbs, skin, muscle etc would all have HP of their own. Damage would cause pain which would reduce concentration. Losing a part would result in losing its functions. Losing your brain or heart = death, guts would probably be fatal eventually, joints would be the end of mobility in that part, dismemberment would be possible. Notice this would increase processor demand significantly. I'd compensate for this by scaling back the eye candy considerably. Actually, instead of graphics as we know them I would have invested all the time and resources into better physics behavior once graphics got to about Half Life's quality.

For attributes I haven't hammered down exactly which I'd use, but probably something like this
Physical fitness
Strength
agility
Mental fitness
Will
Int
Personality
Luck

Strength is mostly obvious. it affects how much physical exertion fatigues you and how fast your muscles can move (as in muscle top speed)
Agility is how smoothly you can move and how effortlessly. This stat mostly effects how much concentration physical maneuvers consume. But also accounts for things like muscle acceleration speed (how quickly you can reach top speed)

Speed seems absent here, but its actually "physical fitness" so it "emerges" from a combination of your strength and agility. Essentially you only need to level up the 2 attributes but they in turn contribute to the emergent ones (Phys. fit., Ment. fit.). Speed doesn't actually exist as an attribute, but its "job" is accounted for.
Endurance would be slightly more complicated. as your strength increases, your muscles increase in size, essentially adding mass to your body. These muscles contribute to the "hp" of each body part that has muscles. Essentially, your torso and limbs gain hp slowly as you gain strength. In the end, it would not be that noticeable of an hp boost. So to put it simply, strength and endurance would be merged. But Will is also part of the "HP" or "staying power" of a character in a fight.

Mental fitness would determine what level of spell power a character would have and is a combination of Wil and Int.
Int, determines the "grandness" of spells and your character potential for complex spells. (what you can cast)
Wil determines how hard you can concentrate on a task, and how easily you can bend magic to your will. (fatigue drain-- how much you can cast)

Personality is not governed by game mechanics. Its governed by YOU. The choices you make ARE your personality. The game does keep track of these and assigns you a (hidden) reputation value that determines how people react to you.
Luck is another hidden stat that changes constantly (mostly randomly, but influence-able if only you knew how the system worked.) Ideally, there would be hints in game to tell you what kind of luck your having today (think "doves or ravens"). Random quests (NPC initiated quests -- someone walks up to you and asks you to do something) would be governed by this stat. So on unlucky days you get mugged. It also effects dice rolls, but more than in previous TES games.

Skills- because changes to the attributes system kinda necessitates changes to skills
I'm not adamant about symmetry like Beth is. All skills don't need 1 and exactly 1 governing attribute. They don't need the same number of attributes either.
I have not decided if I would have 1 skill per weapon type (axes, swords) or 1 skill per weapon style (broad sword, longsword) but I would have MANY more than they have. Rather than focus on what weapon you are using, i would focus on HOW you are using it (are you fighting like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0LYlf24-ZMor http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrk6LHOyHDs). so you could use a long axe like a spear. how efficiently your character can move in that style is determined by his skill in that style and his attributes. how much damage he would do when he hits would be determined by how much energy he is transferring into how much area. so hitting with the blunt tip of the axe would be some what harmless compared to if you actually had a spear. this is because using a spear is totally different from using a claymore (2h skill doesnt 'fit' perfectly) and if I want to role a hastati style character (shield and short stabbing sword) I should be able to (axes cannot stab, they are not used the same way.) A halberd is not a spear they are used differently. a staff can be used like a sword, but it has a way of being used that is more effective.

And no perks as you know them. Perks abilities would not be "blunts penetrate armor" they would be "you can grab your opponent and push him" and you can do this try to do this from skill 1. (Remember physics development before graphics)

Every skill would have some a attributes connected to it. take athletics it would be something like 40% agility 40% strength and 20% willpower. When you've invested enough into an attribute it increases mid game. There is no leveling up. All increases are on the fly and seamless.
Magic would be pretty different:
Telekinesis -- hot/ cold is just kinetic energy, so they go here, shield, levitation
electromagnetism -- shock, detect life, blind--> light, possibly restoration ( depending on whether restoration is manipulating life, or recreating damaged matter)
psychokinesis -- basically telekinesis in the brain -- manipulating people, conjuration ( convincing daedra to obey) invisibility, frenzy, calm, possibly "kill"
necromancy mysticism -- unexplainable phenomena -- teleportation, undead, restoration (again, depending on what restoration is)
alchemy -- natural magic -- does not necessarily require reagents assuming you can transmute what you need -- poison, transmutation, transformation, "the other form of illusion magic"-- charms/ hexes "the restoration alternative" also includes herbalism + potions

Again, forget symmetry. Some magic affects may influence skill gains in more than 1 specific skill for instance a telekinesis spell may have alchemy components (poison created in the body or alchemy at range)
most offensive spells would have a defensive countermeasure so if you notice your enemy is heating the environment around you, you can set up a counter spell (remember Constant effects) to slow or reverse it.
Spell making would be in your menu, not at the mages guild. you buy effects at the guild, not spells. Manipulate spells as you see fit, so you can directly control exactly how much concentration you want to invest keeping the air nice and cozy around you.

I've never actually put my ideas on paper so this changes constantly and I haven't hammered anything down yet.

NUMBERS NUMBERS NUMBERS WORDS WORDS WORDS

i would've scrapped every existing attribute and moved the entire game over to SPECIAL.

skill progression would be as it is now - do something, get better at it. health/magicka/stamina gains would be automatic based on skill increases (raise one-handed by five points, earn a hit point (or something similar i'd have to look deeper into it)). the concept of "leveling up" would be pushed entirely into the background - you'd never see a level up screen at all.

there would be very occasional in-game opportunities to increase an attribute, as well as items that boosted them, obviously, but for the most part they would be locked.

yah G4 was lame

but Gothic 1 2 3 were great and they had wayyyyyy fewer attributes than a TES game

Yeah, hey guys remember the attribute system when we all played the game! I wish it was better though. Oh well!

I think attributes should be like balances.
Strength : agility
Speed : endurance
Wisdom : luck
Intelligence : charisma

Those would be the major connections, there would underlying connections like, if you're wise you're also a bit charismatic. If you're strong then you're also a bit fast. That kind of system I would like.

First - a word on attributes in general:

Attributes are fundamental abilities. They're the most fundamental measure of individual potential. They're not skills.

Every individual has specific attributes. You, me, every human, without exception. We all possess a particular amount of anything you might want to mention - strength, agility, charm, intelligence, wisdom.... These things are necessarily hard to quantify, but they can be quantified, at least as far as can be and would be useful in a game. If the amounts of some of those things vary under different circumstances, then they should be implemented in such a way in the game that they vary under different circumstances. If they change over time - either increasing or decreasing - then they should be implemented in such a way in the game that they change over time - either increasing or decreasing. If there's variations within a particular attribute - say "strength" representing either brute lifting ability or hitting power - then there should be that many different attributes. Each attribute that can be defined should be included, and each one should vary or not, increase or not, decrease or not, solely if and when and to the extent that it makes sense for that to happen. In addition to the basic attributes with which we're already familiar (and any variations within them, such as multiple forms of "strength" and "intelligence") there should be a range of personality attributes, which would affect interactions between and with NPCs - charm, integrity, courage, empathy, that sort of thing.

Each race should have a default starting position for each attribute. Each attribute should be as adjustable as is appropriate at the start of the game. Somehow, the total for all attributes should be the same for all characters. Mechanically, it might be done through sliders - push one up and another goes down - but that would probably be both complicated and limiting. It might work out better to have straight numbers with up and down arrows, so you could subtract from anything, then add the numbers from the resulting "pool" to anything. That could go either way, or even another way if it made more sense to do it that way.

Through the course of the game, the attributes would be entirely under the hood. Whatever ones should legitimately increase would, incrementally, through use. And they'd increase as far as reasonable, then that would be that. In some cases, they might increase greatly (strength, for instance). In other cases, they probably wouldn't increase much if any (intelligence, for instance). There would be no maximums in the sense we think of them - instead, there would be ranges, again as appropriate to the attribute. That would all have to be hammered out over time, however it best worked. I would think that the best way to do it would be, for those attributes that can increase, to allow a percentage of the original total as the amount that it could be increased. So, for instance, with simple lifting strength - say the amount of increase possible is X + 60% - if the character starts with 50 strength, then the maximum possible would be 80. 50 + 60% of 50. If the character starts with 30 strength, then the maximum possible would be 48. 30 + 60% of 30. And so on. And again - some of them would increase relatively easily, some would be quite hard to increase, some wouldn't increase at all. That would be handled on a case-by-case basis, as would the things that increase them. Some of them would be straightforwardly increased (strength by lifting heavy things), but there would also be subtle increases, as warranted. For instance, lifting something heavy might not only increase strength, but would also provide a minor increase to agility. Whatever makes sense. And again, it would all be behind the scenes - everything would happen incrementally and constantly and without any direct communication of any of it to the player. The player would only be able to pick up on it through the game world - whether or not s/he has enough strength to lift up this rock or enough charm to get this person to open up or enough intelligence to read and understand this spell tome.

And on that last - the attributes would be applied throughout the game, wherever it makes sense. Strength checks to lift or move things, swing weapons, jump over things.... intelligence checks for dialogue, disposition, the ability to learn spells, the quality of spells and potions.... whatever makes sense, all the way through the game. In cases where the attribute is legitimately the only thing that matters (like a strength check to lift something) that would be it. In cases where there are other things - skills, generally - that also affect the thing in question, then the attributes would provide the basic figures, which would be modified by the skills (or what-have-you).

And so on........ And none of it matters.

You cant.

The simple fact is skyrim is designed with a fundamental change in character design... a perk based character.

Its simple math.. add a big dose of perks.. shrink skills expand the effect of race a tad... and add gamers...


Thast math leads to the simple fact that atributes had to shrink ALOT to fit into the new character design. Now there is only one way your realy gona crush atributes down into something that small that will also work well with the way characters work in skyrim... and thats exactly what bethesda did. Like it or not its the ONLY thing that could have happened given skyrims design goals.

I liked the SPECIAL system. Really worked well in F1 and F2.

^^^Too complicated for all but the most hardcoe RPG gamers... there's a reason most RPGs limit themselves to four distinct attributes: Strength, Dexterity, Mindpower, and Endurance.

Some RPGs split some attributes (Such as Mindpower into Intelligence and Wisdom or Willpower, dexterity into Speed and Agility) or add a stupid "Luck" attribute... but they try to keep the differences minimal, because otherwise Fighter's get screwed over horribly because they need ALL aspects of Strength, Dexterity, and Endurance (And usually the Willpower half of Mindpower as well!), while Mages just require Mindpower. Thieves don't require any of the attributes, since they function within their own limitations to surpass obstacles.

Too Complicated? the thing is straight forward and details what it effects and its too complicated, interesting.