Skyrim not big enough? : V - Skyrim

» Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:38 am

Oblivion felt very cramped and they keep talking about how much more stuff they put in it... So yeah it is too small.

» Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:28 am

bigger =/= better, unfortunately. Id rather have the current land size packed full of content than a bigger landmass that's relatively empty.

It wouldn't be empty. It would be the same content as before, just spread out to more natural and realistic proportions, rather than finding a cave every 30 seconds and crossing a huge-looking valley (at first) in 30 seconds.

» Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:36 pm

I think the modes of transport (fast travelling) and the simplicity of the quests (clear map markers) certainly added to the perceptual "shrinking" of Morrowind to that of Oblivion. Before you had to walk....alot and scout an area fully when finding quests. now its zip-zip-zip-zip and upon entering a town you follow the map markers directly to the house you need.

» Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:09 am

Todd confirmed that it will be the same size as Oblivion, But more Dungeons, Caves, Runes And forts etc...

» Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:11 pm

I think the points of interest markers have a hell of a lot to do with it. You can travel a while without finding anything, but you can't go 50' without something being 'advertised'. There's no chance of saying how the hell did I miss that? I've been that way a dozen times".
If you had to fully explore the woods to see if there is anything hidden in there, hey presto, world that seems larger.
Mods will fix that. No they won't, not for what they say is their largest consumer group, on consoles.

» Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:53 am

I think the points of interest markers have a hell of a lot to do with it. You can travel a while without finding anything, but you can't go 50' without something being 'advertised'. There's no chance of saying how the hell did I miss that? I've been that way a dozen times".
If you had to fully explore the woods to see if there is anything hidden in there, hey presto, world that seems larger.
Mods will fix that. No they won't, not for what they say is their largest consumer group, on consoles.

That's a good point and that can make a difference as well. Without a magic compass "advertising" everything that exists nearby, you would naturally explore more and it would then probably also feel a bit bigger even so.

» Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:54 am

Have any of you ever walked around Cyrodiil? From the comments so far you can't convince me that you did. I agree with others that it was barren as well was DF and MW (I played both and they were), but hopefully Todd and Pete are right and traversing around mountains and such will seem much bigger. Also having different holds that have their own criminal system may have a bigger feel to it.

» Sat Aug 20, 2011 11:27 pm

It wouldn't be empty. It would be the same content as before, just spread out to more natural and realistic proportions, rather than finding a cave every 30 seconds and crossing a huge-looking valley (at first) in 30 seconds.

There's probably going to be about 15-20 dungeons in each region (an estimate); I doubt that it's going to be every 30 seconds, lol.

and it also took Todd 30 minutes to travel ~1% of the landmass, while just looking around/exploring. I know where you're getting at, but I'm sure it's not going to be stupidly packed with content.

» Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:44 pm

That actually makes things worse. A small world packed with lots of things means an incredibly cramped up world, with ridiculous scales.
In short, it means really really bad world design.

So it "actually" make things worse? It is funny how you conclude things... 16 squaremiles is not small by any means, especially when you have grand mountains that puts the y-axis to more use.
Moreover, Oblivion felt really empty(a big nothing) in a way so they could easy triple the content and it still would feel realistic. And I don't know about you but I would rather not spend one and a half hour of running until I reached my goal... I do have a life outside of Skyrim. I would say that what I have seen indicates on a really really good world design.

» Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:54 am

I am worried about it being to cramped in. Obviously it is good to have loads of points of interest (dungeons, forts, houses, statues etc) but to find sometihng every 30 seconds would be stupid. I like there to be some open space with not much else to see other than trees and I quite liked that in Oblivion.

I'm not saying I want the game world to have less in it but I would prefer the game world to increase in size to accomodate everything, without feeling completely suffocated by it all. Still how I am imagining it in my head probalby isn't that bad in reality and I think Bethesda would have already realised this concern of game world size in ratio to what's in it.

I think the terrain will seriously help here. You might be fairly close to a dungeon or something, but the fact that you have to traverse treacherous mountains to get to it will feel more like a roaming adventure, as opposed to a gentle stroll where you come across a new attraction every few feet.

(or at least, this is what I'm hoping for :thumbsup: )

» Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:15 am

So it "actually" make things worse? It is funny how you conclude things... 16 squaremiles is not small by any means, especially when you have grand mountains that puts the y-axis to more use.
Moreover, Oblivion felt really empty(a big nothing) in a way so they could easy triple the content and it still would feel realistic. And I don't know about you but I would rather not spend one and a half hour of running until I reached my goal... I do have a life outside of Skyrim. I would say that what I have seen indicates on a really really good world design.

You do know that mountains take a lot space, right?
16 squaremiles is incredibly small for 150 dungeons, over 100 points of interest, 20 towns and 9 cities. Point out all those things yourself on a scaled map and see how much room there's left

I'm not saying that it should incredibly big, just bigger or even just a bit bigger, so don't try and turn my argument against by using argumentative faults.

It's definitely not good world design to have it so you find a cave every 30 seconds and where you can cross a (at first) huge looking valley in 30 seconds. The best world design is to have it so it feels natural, yet not so big that it becomes a pain to travel everywhere.

» Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:56 am

I'd say Skyrim is becoming too big for its own good (just like the other most recent Beth games). It has - from the sound of it - so much stuff cramped in, that it likely can't offer much in the way of focused or involved content (if such are even intended) leaving most of the stuff being just random distractions which, in the long run, really count for nothing in particular.

» Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:51 pm

I think the terrain will seriously help here. You might be fairly close to a dungeon or something, but the fact that you have to traverse treacherous mountains to get to it will feel more like a roaming adventure, as opposed to a gentle stroll where you come across a new attraction every few feet.

(or at least, this is what I'm hoping for :thumbsup: )

It's the terrain that I am hoping will save it from the smothered feeling it would otherwise have if it were flatter like Cyrodiil was in TES IV. Still if I had to have 1 extreme over the other it would be to have more and not less so maybe I am worrying for nothing :tes:

» Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:15 am

I think Bethesda should just give up on TES, because they just seem to svck at making games.

» Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:54 am

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ky1bf81QrMw/TOAfiP6s9lI/AAAAAAAAA2w/UsjrRrW3Mh4/s1600/crystal_ball.jpg

» Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:14 pm

You do know that mountains take a lot space, right?
16 squaremiles is incredibly small for 150 dungeons, over 100 points of interest, 20 towns and 9 cities. Point out all those things yourself on a scaled map and see how much room there's left

I'm not saying that it should incredibly big, just bigger or even just a bit bigger, so don't try and turn my argument against by using argumentative faults.

It's definitely not good world design to have it so you find a cave every 30 seconds and where you can cross a (at first) huge looking valley in 30 seconds. The best world design is to have it so it feels natural, yet not so big that it becomes a pain to travel everywhere.

I'll just add http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110621230412/elderscrolls/images/0/01/OblivionGateMap.jpg to your quote so people can imagine how cramped Skyrim will be.

» Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:54 am

As Bethesda has said many times, it is much more dense than Oblivion. Pete Hines has said it is the biggest game they've done so far. So http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvdf5n-zI14. At the argument of it being cramped, there are mountains that add vertical spaces, so there can be many cave systems within them. It makes sense, and I think that is a great thing to have.

» Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:48 am

Well in Oblivion pretty much everywhere is the same environment except maybe Bruma.

» Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:06 am

You do know that mountains take a lot space, right?
16 squaremiles is incredibly small for 150 dungeons, over 100 points of interest, 20 towns and 9 cities. Point out all those things yourself on a scaled map and see how much room there's left

I'm not saying that it should incredibly big, just bigger or even just a bit bigger, so don't try and turn my argument against by using argumentative faults.

It's definitely not good world design to have it so you find a cave every 30 seconds and where you can cross a (at first) huge looking valley in 30 seconds. The best world design is to have it so it feels natural, yet not so big that it becomes a pain to travel everywhere.

Morrowind was about half the size of Oblivion, and it had more locations. Was it crowded? Not at all. Remember, Oblivion was pretty empty sometimes.

» Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:33 am

Ok so I was looking at the Skyrim map. http://skyrimguild.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Skyrim-map.png

And I thought to myself, if Skyrim is about the size of Oblivion is that enough space to pull off what Bethesda are trying to do?

In Oblivion I did realize it was big, but I never got the feeling that walking from kvatch to the imperial city, or other combinations was really a huge journey.

In Morrowind I actually really feel like the game is big and its a long journey to get from one town to another.

So saying Skyrim will have 9 holds with different environments means that each different environment should have a substantial amount of space. For example, I want Fall Forest to feel pretty big before I get to Pine Forest.

But sadly I really didnt get that from the size of Oblivion.

I really want you guys to be truthful and honest, do you think the size of Oblivion can pull off the feeling that Skyrim is trying to bring?

there will be many mountains and hills and even some cliffs i believe skyrim will deffinitly have that vvardenfell sense of it feels bigger than it really is.