Yes, but I prefer to see my skills and where they are at and how they are advancing, rather than just seeing a perk HUD at a level up and then that's it. But I guess we'll just wait and see.

You're right. Only did it really pick up around ten years later. Maybe 2007? Just a hunch.

Lol yup, Bethesda took it and ran with it like a bucktoothed red-headed step child.

We don't know that its less complex at all. It could be more complex for all we know. Bethesda hasn't told us everything yet, their could be a totally new part of leveling and skills that we don't know about. I like how some of the skills they removed such as athletics and acrobatics. I always felt that it was unrealistic that you could run around in heavy armor very fast if you had a I athletics skill. It doesn't dump down the game to the lowest denominator at all. The last time I checked RPG stands for role playing game, and you don't need skills or attributes to roleplay.

Bethesda knows what their doing, I think we should trust their judgment.

Heh alot of cranky people have been desperately ignoring what beth said all along that perks are the main building block of your char this time. I mean realy they couldnt have been more blunt about it if they grabbed your head and tattooed it on your face.

But STILL alot of people stubbornly cling to the idea perks are just a minor thing and cant possibly replace other systems from older es games.

That is the POINT of skyrim to replace some systems with the perk system and make a perk based character system.. because its never been done before and a whole lotta people agree if they pull it off its gona be FUN!

Perks where in the games much before call of duty, and they where prominent in "Role playing games", so they belong to the genre.

They might have been named by another name, but for instance the closest think that I can remember that resembles the Skyrim's skill perks are the "Skill trees" of Diablo II.

And those skill trees where a great feature of the game.

But what is Fallout without SPECIAL?

It's pointless to take attributes out when they too have potential.


For example, New vegas without attributes: anyone can get any perk no matter what. A perk that increases the amount of skill points you gain per level that's normally reserved just for intelligent characters can now be used by anyone. A Perk that lets you regenerate health over time that's normally reserved for only the most durable characters can now be taken by anyone. Better Criticals, a powerful perk normally reserved for perceptive and lucky characters, is now available to anyone, so anyone can crit hard as hell.
Furthermore, every character is the same. Agile characters no longer reload faster because there's no agility attribute to govern reload speed. Perceptive characters no longer see farther because there's no longer a perception attribute to govern this. Every character is now equally effective with all weapons regardless of their weight, everyone can carry the same amount of items, everyone has the same amount of HP at the beginning, everyone can get the same amount of implants, everyone sees the same distance, everyone has the same damage resistance, everyone has the same quality of companions, everyone gets the same amount of skill points per level up, everyone reloads at the exact same speed, everyone does equally well in the casinos and everyone has the exact same crit rate. Attributes also have no speech checks ever in any dialog, effectively ruining the depth of characters like Christine and the Think Tanks since everyone can now understand them.


And this is the exact thing that worries people about Skyrim. We know perks can be great thanks to Fallout, but we also know that perks COMBINED WITH ATTRIBUTES can be even greater. So why are they limiting themselves?

It was a mistake that will only not come back to bite them in the but because too many people who are new to the series will like it or not care.

-DL :chaos:

Nope, its dumbing down and removing RP options and build types. And no, I dont think you do know RPing, especially since you thought build types and characters with strengths and weaknesses are an MMO thing.

This threads main topic through the OP is flawed, making this thread slightly a waste of time.

Skyrim is using the Linear Skill Tree System not the Perk System. Previous TES games have had Stand-Alone perks.

Not the Perk system. We're talking RPG mechanics here yes?

You know, of every single thing in the TES world that could possibly be called far-fetched or not a worthy humanoid skill, things involving punching, running, or jumping should probably be at the bottom of that list...

I know, but it seems that since Call of Duty 4, perks have become more pronounced. I'd have called them skill trees over perks, but that's my opinion.

This is what boggles me. Why would Beth intentionally make an inferior system?

Not to mention those things like jumping ten feet in the air, are lore friendly. the only people that think its ridiculous are people not familiar with the lore.

what lack of skills?

None of the perks replace the lost skills. And I don't think that was their intended use.
So no, they don't, and they are not supposed to.

It is a game world where you can go to another dimension, raise the dead, become a vampire, become a wearwolf, levitate (cough, cough), shoot fire and lightning bolts from your fingertips, breath underwater, walk on water, become invisible, trap souls, drink potions to restore your health, create a magic shield, enchant items.....

But it is the punching that is far-fetched. :teehee:

As anyone actually played the game yet? Yes? No? I'm hearing lots of nos.

Face it, we won't truly know about how the perks/talent trees/points will work out in comparison to more traditional mechanics until we actually....play it. What a novel concept.

We can speculate all we want but we won't truly have an opinion until the controllers/keyboards and mouses are in our hands and try it out for ourselves.

I'm going to put my two cents into this piggy bank of opinions.

I like perks (skill trees), so far. They are something new and that isn't always a bad thing. Sure, sometimes it isn't a good thing either, but if you don't try new things, everything begins to get samey.

I hated Acrobatics, I Hated athletics, and I hated Speed. I am always walk/running, I will always be jumping, and Speed got so ridiculous at high levels I AVOIDED it like the plague. Do I want acrobat characters? Sure i do, but the way jumping works, it just became annoying having high acrobatics, i found myself limiting the skill with the console when i played on PC so i had a set jump height that wasn't so cartoon-ish.

Do i want quick characters? Sure i do, but when i only have a W key and no way of determining how fast i want to walk/run, it becomes annoying to have a high speed/athletics. So the way Skyrim is handling jumping, running/sprinting, and whatnot doesn't bother me. Its actually doing what i have been doing in oblivion for years.

Perks, skill trees, and attributes are not new systems. We also have past history of poor design (level scaling and poor treatment of attributes in OB) to go off of. We may not be able to confirm speculation until release but we can certainly form an opinion based on the released information.

Simply put, unless there is an Ace up their sleeve over at the Softworks with regards to character development it looks like we are getting a gimped system. Less depth, less builds, less options... More superficial +1 choices in perks to make you think you are doing something when in all reality, your not doing anything that wouldn't have already been done and there exists another system that could do it better and more realistically. There is added depth of potential in the perk trees but instead of this it looks like a significant part of perks are being used to cover for gutting attributes.

It's an issue that won't impact the casual gamer. It will strongly impact a significant minority.

New to the Elder Scrolls genre. As for Oblivion, I think it much more sharper and clear-cut with it's character creation, but that's a different debate altogether.

We've only seen a few perks, which among other things, allow certain actions like being able to bash enemies with the shield. It's not just number crunching or an increase in skill potency like it was in past games. There are clear, useable benefits with some of the perks we've seen so far. Remember that we've barely touched the entire game, much less the character progression system. When you look in the sky to select perks, there are TONS of them. Keep that in mind.

Enough with the casual gamer moniker. Just because we see promise in change doesn't make us casual.

I don't see why we can't have both?

When I look up at the skill trees, in all their ridiculously designed glory, for the first time I will try to ignore the 50% or so that are nothing more than attributable effects gimped into less realistic package.



Oy, the "change" moniker...

Defending what looks like poor design is not really a good setting for that tired expression. :turned:

An excellent question.

Yes, as long as skill checks continue to be always successful, you determine with your perk selection at which point you're able to perform that perk. If it was dice roll chance, more skills would have made more sense. I don't understand the need to "we absolutely have to remove 3 more skills" though. If I could pick three, they would be:
Magic: Mysticism - With typical magic perks, have no idea what they are.
Combat: Athletics - Swimming (speed, buoyancy, endurance), running (sprints, endurance), jumping (height, distance, air control - so does what acrobatics does).
Stealth: Identification - Identify foe (level, health...), identify item (magic, scrolls), lore if different kinds.

Edit: 1H and 2H as skills makes more sense than Axe, Blade, because of weapons such as Falchion which are a mix of Axe and Blade, but still only belong in 1H. Many examples of weaponry that doesn't belong in preset classes.