Is it not fitting how, in Skyrim, we find ourselves in a land of turmoil and an age of uncertainty? With dissident groups growing, and the Empire's power dwindling? It is truly the birth of a new era.

It can be said that this setting is anologous to the situation here in reality, for we are experiencing, or about to experience, the very development of the meaning of the Elder Scrolls series. It is both an exciting and troubling time, as this series which some of us have cherished for so long is now teetering on the precipice. It is the nature of this precipice that I want to examine, which I shall get to in a moment.

As I'm sure many of you know, there is a large rift in the Elder Scrolls fanbase. I think you all know what the prime divider of this rift is and which two groups I am referring to. Those are: pre-Oblivion fans and post-Oblivion fans (pre-O and post-O). It seems to me that, at times, these two groups cannot understand one another at all. This makes sense, since Morrowind and Oblivion are two radically different games. But the problem stems from the fact that these two games are in fact two radically different games which are part of the same series. Yes, I know each Elder Scrolls game is supposed to be “their own unique, individual game” but one cannot ignore how related and interdependent they are when it comes to defining the series and lore as a whole. And yes, I know that it is not a “one or the other” thing, and there are many who love both games equally for what they are. But that still does not reconcile many of the misunderstandings of both groups. Of course, much of the problems come from the simple fact that each group has their own definition of what “Elder Scrolls” means. Morrowind fans remember being lost in a whimsical, immersive, hostile world of alien landscapes and intrigue, while Oblivion fans recall exploring a more familiar, friendly world of lushness and traditional fantasy. But how come so many per-O fans feel no magic, or even let down by Oblivion? Well... there are many reasons that I won't list here (trust me, I could if I wanted to take up the whole page). They are not important to bicker over. Suffice it to say that, while each game made many valuable contributions to the series, overall Morrowind had many things that Oblivion didn't have, but Oblivion only had a few things Morrowind didn't have. It was clear that, with Oblivion, the series was bound to be taking a different direction in general. These are the main reasons why I think many pre-O fans felt the sequel to their beloved series to be somewhat lacking. Some post-O fans simply cannot understand this I think – and that's just because they had a completely different introduction to TES, which is fine. (Side note: it frustrates many pre-O fans when post-O fans play the “all you ever wanted was a Morrowind 2” card. This is simply not true, and plus what the hell does it even mean? The pre-O fans indiscriminately looked forward to Oblivion with maddening anticipation despite the obvious impending departure, only to have many of them let down afterwards due to a culmination of other factors which will not be focused on here. Anyway, I know most post-O fans are not like this) Also, it is necessary that I (reluctantly) mention how part of the new direction set with Oblivion was the intention for TES to expand into the console market, since it is commonly known that console focused players and PC focused players often share very different views regarding video games in general, which can at times make their mindsets seem worlds apart. I am aware that Morrowind was released on the Xbox, but that was not it's primary target market. That is all I will say about that.

But whatever one thinks about Oblivion as part of the TES series, one cannot deny that it was a commercial success. It expanded the fanbase radically, and received much more attention than Morrowind ever did. It certainly will be the same with Skyrim over its predecessor as well. But, at what cost? To the newly obtained fans, nothing, since they had nothing to begin with ( I do not mean that in a negative way). Yet I think there are definitely some pre-O fans who are starting to feel alienated as a result of this new direction of “streamlining” and “accessibility”. And as we get to the root of why this direction over another, it should be no surprise.

We see this reoccurring phenomenon time and time again with commercial successes. They start out small with a small dedicated niche fanbase, and as they taste more and more success it naturally channels them to the path which will attain even more success, perhaps leaving the old niche fans feeling forgotten or even betrayed in the process, since these dedicated few have such different impressions of the “artist”than the masses. This often happens with popular bands and the like. I don't want to apply the harsh “Sell-out” term to BSG (yet), for this is the precipice I meant in the beginning. Even if they're not there yet, they are getting dangerously close. There are some who ponder the claim of how BSG is putting the same land area, less factions, less hand-made quests, and less overall features in a game with more budget, more technology, and more staff. It seems there are many who accept the haphazard explanations of “folding superfluous features into others” by Todd “The Liar” Howard whose promotion of the game often stretches the truth at the best of times. Perhaps they've forgotten the promises made during the promotion of Oblivion, or maybe even never followed it in the first place? But these are all pessimistic speculations, and are hopefully proven otherwise. Still, the new direction cannot be denied, and causes worry in many.

As for myself I am cautiously optimistic for Skyrim and the future of Elder Scrolls. Despite the 3-steps-forward-2-steps-back feeling I get sometimes, there does seem to be at least a few genuine solid improvements over the last game, even if they are a bit one sided (by that I mean more action/gameplay focused improvements rather than story/plot/setting). As for the new direction set by BSG, can we really blame them? It is clear they want to make the game as popular and make as much money as possible, but perhaps that is just how the industry works. And this makes sense, since it is how basic human nature works. It is our greed that drives us, and yet will also be our downfall. Can we really expect the hard working people at BSG to forsake all concerns and financial comforts to have instead complete creative freedom? Can they carry the burden of attempting to make a true timeless piece of art, rather than a good entertainment product? Sadly, the answer is no. I used to dream of Video Games obtaining literature status, with great games like Morrowind, Planescape: Torment, Baldur's Gate, Myst, and the early Fallouts being put on library shelves next to the great classic novels of our time. But no longer, or at least not any time soon. Video games are now entertainment products over artworks, being mass-marketed and mass-manufactured. Less and less often are they games being made by gamers for gamers, but instead products being made by corporations for mass consumption. Whether Skyrim will follow suite and fall one way or another or stay on the edge, we shall soon see in the coming weeks.

Yea they are really based on the same core principle, the hero's journey. Our collective subconcious simply craves that kind of stuff, which is why Elder Scrolls are so popular.

EDIT: Many of the people on the forum fail to awknowledge the fact that if Bethesda doesn't try to make money, there will be no more of their precious Elder Scrolls.

I loved Daggerfall, I loved Morrowind and I loved Oblivion. No doubt I'll love Skyrim.

TL;DR
Don't worry about it, it will be fine. If not... I have :fallout:

That's a whole lot of text to basically say "Change is bad."

If you don't like things changing, keep playing Morrowind. It's held up fantastically over time.

There is a third class of people you completely ignored: the ones who liked Morrowind and Oblivion. I enjoyed Morrowind thoroughly. I enjoyed many of the changes in Oblivion, but I still enjoy playing Morrowind today. Skyrim will again be totally different. That's exciting for me and lots of other people. Many of whom you'll never see on a forum, because they're too busy playing the game.

That's not really what I meant. There are infinite variations in the possible changes that could happen, most of which are of course bad and nonsensical, so there are only a few paths that are ideal. We all want the "right" change, but of course everyone has their own definition of that right? More than anything, the type of change that i want is progress.

I wish more people had started with Daggerfall. Much better game then Morrowind. I guess the people who started with Morrowind feel the same about Oblivion for the most part, although Morrowind is my least favorite in the series. I believe Skyrim will surpass them all though. Sorry you feel the way you do OP.

Yea same here, Morrowind is by far my least favorite, completely broke the lore and just didn't interest me as much as Daggerfall did. Of course that doesn't mean I didn't like it :tes:

Based on your post, I don't think you really do want progress. You're already deriding major features of the game without having played it at all.

And by the way, the notion that most changes to the already existing would be bad is idiotic. There are plenty of changes that could/would be incredible. It all depends on the game world that Bethesda is creating.

Daggerfall was great too, and Morrowind was, in my eyes, more of a logical step in the right direction following Daggerfall than Oblivion after Morrowind. The main reason I didn't refer to them was because it is the Morrowind--> Oblivion transition where the great rift in the fanbase lies.

I disagree. Incredibly unfocused game with little spirit in it. Morrowind was loaded with spirit and custom complexity as well as Oblivion.

But I still like Daggerfall because of its grandness.

I love them all nothing beats any ES, it's just my least favorite in the series :tes:

I am pleased with many of the features in Skyrim, but am also concerned with the lack of some features as well. And no, the notion that, of all possible changes, most changes are bad is not idiotic. For example the random change of the player to a giant Orange would probably be negative. Basically what I'm saying is that the change has to follow a logical stream, rather than this convoluted path 3 steps forward, 2 back way BSG seems to be taking.

Ah. I see now.

The flaw in your thinking is that you honestly believe that the best course for a developer is to try to please their fanbase. That's not how good art is ever made.

1) Add a TL;DR section

2) Honestly, from what I have seen on these forums it seems more "Morrowind era fans" v "Before OR after Morrowind fans"... MW was the odd one out.

3) You strawman sides nicely.

4) Your point seems to be a half ramble-rant that tries to say "Hopefully Skyrim is moving in the right direction and appeases all crowds" which seems rather obvious, and not needing to be said, to me. Oh, then you add on some stuff about marketing/whatever influencing the game :shrug:

I guess I'm a Pre-O fan... I was introduced to Morrowind. I still like Oblivion much more, but some of the elements of Morrowind I still desire. Morrowind had piss-poor combat and graphics but everything else was great. OB had "good nuff" graphics and much better combat (and magic, even if it had a fraction of the effects).

My point being, I like their new direction, but they should take some of the elements of the older games over into the newest installment.

Also, I didn't much care for Vvardenfell. I'm glad it's gone.

Well no, but I think they should appease their existing fanbase at least somewhat, rather than doing everything solely to get more fans. Morrowind was art, and if they continued on in that vein then they would be making more artistic games

That read as a healthy dose of rose tinted glasses with a side of stubbornness to change.


You act like the ONLY reason they change is for mass appeal. In reality, the games have changed because of many, many reasons. The Elder Scrolls games have undergone massive changes in every iteration of the series.

Did you hate Morrowind because it was "mass-marketed and mass-manufactured?" Because it most certainly separated away from it's roots and was made to appeal to a mass market of gamers. I find it strange that you exclude Morrowind from exhibiting the same behavior that you seem to dislike so much.



Might and Magic - A series I used to love that Daggerfall was basically based on. They stayed true to roots and died off slowly. After World of Xeen, I never played another Might and Magic again.
Elder Scrolls - Has progressively made their games more involving and exciting. They have stayed true to their open world roots, but have made the experience with the environment more visceral and real.


Elder Scrolls is known for their ability to change and adapt in order to make your experience in this crazy fantasy world better and better every time. They have made design decisions that make some people raise an eyebrow and others fall in love. This happens in every one of their games. You are not being forgotten as a fan of older games, you are being given a better overall experience according to what they think the Elder Scrolls experience should be. Every single game is vastly different from the last in very specific ways and every game is very much the same in some very broad and general ways.

With Skyrim, they are holding true to the spirit of Elder Scrolls and they are creating a more diverse, visceral experience.

I don't want them to appease all crowds at all. I just fear they are alienating their older fans in favour of getting new ones.

They clearly don't develop the games just to get more fans. This company has always had the philosophy of developing games that they would want to play. Which is exactly why their games are always good.

Oblivion was plenty artistic, despite its flaws. Just like Morrowind.

I mean, imagine if "The Simpsons" had tried to appease their existing fanbase.