And yet, the fact remains that stats (as used to define a character and allow for progression) is an essential feature of all RPG video games. Everything else people commonly mistake as essential features (storyline, etc) may add a lot to the game, but are certainly not vital. That's why you can find many examples of RPGs without storylines, but will have a hard time finding a single one that doesn't use stats to define characters.



TESFanner gets it.

In order to define my character through actions, there has to be consequences, and to have consequences, you need stats. For instance, if I go upto an NPC and hit them, will that NPC take a hostile tone towards my character in future? Will other NPCs who witnessed the action regard my character as being dishonorable? Sure, I can "imagine" what impact actions are having on my character's persona, but it's not the same.


Table-top roleplaying and RPG video games work differently. It annoys me that people keep trying to make the comparison.

Lol subjective framing devices like 'rpg' don't have proper definitions it means what it means to you. Let's not have a fight because you can't agree oh what's an action adventure and what a rpg. That's just silly. Also don't say people opinions are wrong. It's not constructive. And to be frank (or Charles) it is the only thing wrong.

And here I thought roleplaying games were about roleplaying, they still are for me.

To me an RPG is a game in which it is possible to play a variety of roles.
For example, in CoD, regardless of story or imagined story the only role you can play is a soldier who will kill the enemy. You can't, in game, decide to be a hippy and live in a cave.

In TES we can be a hermit, a wanderer, an alchemist based in a town and never ventures far from it, a noble, a thief, etc.

In Fable, totally different type of RPG, but you can be good or bad, melee or mage or stealthy thief. Still plenty of choices there.

That's the key for me. Don't care about skill stats as such but obviously a computer is limited and stats are a convenient mechanism for differentiating character types which in turn enables role playing. Stats don't define an RPG, but in current computer games they tend to define our characters' interactions and determine how that differs from the last character we role played.

I got what you meant the first time and can't agree more. If the world is not immersive, the RPG will fail. DA1 to DA2 is a great example of immersion and story telling. The delta btw those two games was similar to the challenges we had btw MW and O. I'm not saying the games were similar, just saying the delta in the changes were similar. The immersion decline was similar. I'm hoping we get back to more of a RPG with more RPG elements and fewer mainstream elements. Not that there's anythign wrong with mainstream, there's a market for it, but there's also a market for folks who want an in depth RPG.

The article isn't as positive as some of you make it out to be,and some of you forget the other article comparing darksouls also. It's not written well at all in my view,and looked like it was strung together in two minutes. And to those of you that say skyrim is turning into an action RPG or adventure game......quess what,it always has been. Forza,fifa,and many other games could be clased as RPG,because you are playing the role of someone or something. RPG have always had action and adventure in them of some sort. Most of you think RPG = numbers....Wrong,wrong,wrong. So stop with it already.

And to those trying to get people warned because they say "some " people are idiots,I find it ridiculous. I don't think it's offensive at all really. It's no different than saying my opinion or post is stupid. I have been called a dike or an idiot in PM's,i don't give a monkeys bumcheeks,it's like water off a ducks back. Everyone on here at some point has thought someone is an idiot. I find it petty and childish to point out someone has said idiot,in fact i find it worse...but that's my opinion. I've also seen worse things said and not even an eye-lid has been batted. And if i'm honest i think the word " idiot" is needed on here sometimes.

The comparison comes from the fact that video RPGs evolved from table-top RPGs. Things like classes and attributes were borrowed directly from the tabletops. And yes, they do work differently, so why hang on to table-top elements that are unnecessary in a video game because the computer can do all the math for you, so all you have to do is roleplay?

It's not always best to let the computer do everything for you, at that point it's just an interactive movie. There must be decisions to make and those decisions must have consequences. By making all your choices on the fly, while you play the game, removes the consequences. It removes the fundamentals of RPG's where you don't have to decide beforehand what your character should be.

Roleplaying is more than just putting yourself into the role of your character. It's also making decisions for your character that unltimately defines your character. Having classes and attributes and birth signs defined your character.

We can still create a class if we chose to do so,our skills,perks and how we act in the game define who we are. You also say it's best to not let the compuer do everything for us,which it's not,we have more control than ever. If i wanted +5 to an attribute,the game/computer was basically saying,use a skill you don't want,it'll be fine.....Errmmm....NO THANKS! And where does it say you can't plan your character before hand? What you say makes no sense to me.....you're digging yourself in a bigger hole.

lol well played

Is this that article by the guy who's an RPG gamer but just hasn't realized it yet?

:tes:

You still visit this site ?

No more ign after the many fiascoes it has released.

Lol I stopped visiting ign many years ago... Let's face it all mainstream media outlets svck by pumping out far touch opinion over fact. Or should I say presented as fact, a little like this thread.

Unless you forgot, there are no classes, attributes and birth signs. I'm a little too old to "Pretend", as I would hope everyone else is. This is Role Playing, by remvoing the classes, attributes and birthsigns you are now choosing as you go and then when you decide to change, guess what? No consequences. You change and continue on. Without consequences for your design decisions you do not have Role Playing.

You are happy and content with "Pretending" to have classes and "Pretending" to create your own. I'm not happy with that because I know that "Pretending" only takes you so far.

There has to be consquences for your design choices, those have been removed and with it a major aspect of Role Playing.

Why would anyone get mad over this? All its gonna do is get casual gamers buying Skyrim. Which is (hopefully) good. More money for Bethesda (and they deserve it). UNLESS, it turns them into moneygrubbers who make the next TES game a super-casual piece of crap. I don't see this happening though.

The only games to successfully blend adventure with rpg imo is the Quest for Glory series. Amazing games.

You couldn't be more wrong.
RPGs are about story, character development, leveling, looting/collecting, exploring and maybe atmosphere.
Immersion is completely unrelated.

No.
Simulations should be immersive ... or interactive films (because there's not much else, they offer).
For an RPG it's unimportant, if it is immersive.
The atmosphere is important though ... maybe you actually meant that.

It already is. That is what happened with Oblivion. They obviously decided that they didn't dumb it down enough so they went even further with Skyrim.

Bringing in people who don't even like RPG's is the main problem. The solution is to make a QUALITY RPG and then promote it and show people how to actually play an RPG. Educate them on what an RPG is and how much fun it is. This way those people who hate RPG's can be educated and find out that they actually like them.

You don't dumb down the game to lowest common denominator and that is what's being done.

Cant we all just agree that RPG games mean different things to different people?
Or is it against the forums etiquette to have more then three people agree on something? ^^

:tes:

I am going to reserve judgement until I play this myself