I just completed the warehouse mission, and wow...I am so utterly stupified with the level of BS seeping from all aspects of this mission after the very first mini-quest you get for it. Where do I begin?

Using the VanGraffs as an idea for quest givers was great, but it really went downhill from there. From the 1st cheesy interaction of "showing how badass" they are, when they shoot one of their prospective clients. [censored]. Not even in the Fallout world would anyone choose to do business with you once you've just murdered their buddy....speaking of which...
Killing Cass. Seriously? WTF! The pay for this too is incredibly, horribly weak. Only 350 [censored] caps, vs one of the best perks in the game?? For letting an NPC outright murder your companion, it should have been more like 35,000! I also hate how heavily armed & armored every single guard here is, not to mention them being a crack shot w/ their energy weapons. Honestly, the NCR never would have allowed the VanGraffs to stay here in Freeside. They would have raided the Silver Rush long ago, shot them or seized all of their property, and then added it to the NCR stockpiles to fight the Legion. It's horrible how the game essentially tricks you into Jean-Baptiste wanting to "talk" to Cass. Why is there no dialogue between them at all?? A simple comment from Cass like, "Oh, [censored] off Jean, I'm not in the caravan business anymore, Courier here got me to sell it to the Crimson Caravan." Could have ended any hostilities he had for her. I'm just saddened that the same kind of dialogue that inspired this game like from Fallout 2 wasn't at all present here.
Lastly, the warehouse. What a total trash, garbage ending. They betray the Legion, and...that's it? There had better be some quest later on where you can join up with the Legion to get revenge on the VanGraffs for their betrayal. You don't just go and murder an entire squad and expect an entire Slaver Nation to turn the other cheek. Also of special mention: you, as the player don't have to do anything at all to pass this mission. Literally, all I did just now was sit, shoot the unconscious Legion members, and go and loot the bodies of the fallen NPC's. I didn't even have to shoot anyone, I could have just sat here and waited for all of the billion NPC allies you have to finish them all off. This is really, really terrible Bethesda, and it makes me not want to support you guys in the future with purchasing games.
I don't know if it was Bethesda, or Obsidian who did this quest chain, but I'm sorry to say you both really let me down for your involvement. I'll continue to go and have a love/hate relationship with this game, now. (Love certain aspects, but I keep finding more things I hate as I go along...)

The Van Graffs are based in NCR territory. What you see in New Vegas is their Mojave branch.

They didn't shoot a client, that was a Manikin. If you interact with the ashes, it tells you so.

As for killing Cass, I disagree that "Whiskey Rose" is one of the best perks in the game. It's useful, but not necessarily the best. And as far as the pay goes, the Van Graffs see Cass as basically a nobody, so the pay is fair. For reference, you could get paid 10-15 caps per head to kill either "good" or "evil" nobodies in FO3.

-Nukeknockout

I know they're based in NCR; I talked with Gloria to learn that.

No, I'm pretty sure that was a client. It reads "Ash Pile." It had 3 bottlecaps on it. Pretty sure mannequins don't carry around bottle caps...

We can disagree on that, it's fine. Personally, being able to gain +DT anytime before I know a fight is coming is an amazing perk. Also, it synergize(d) perfectly w/ my character, until Jean-Baptiste "shot the [censored]" as he put it. No, she's not a "nobody." Out of all of the single people Jean-Baptiste could have wanted to kill, she is his #1 choice, even beyond that of Pacer, who [censored] his sister, and is going around spreading lies about her. It's just a very poorly written & put together quest chain, I'm disliking more & more of the game as I play it.

They didn't shoot a client OR a mannequin. That was a former thug of theirs who was, more or less, already set for execution (he was already stripped and kneeled down on the floor when you enter for the first time).

As for a quest where the Legion gets back at them...no there isn't one. There doesn't need to be, the Van Graffe's, like everyone else in Vegas, are likely to be put on the cross. That, and there's nothing stopping you from dishing out some "RETRIBUTION!" if you really want to.

You sure do cry a lot, Warrior. One quest chain you didn't like, and you're already willing to boycott everything by Bethesda and/or Obsidian.

Buddy? What do you know about the man that was killed? He was a nobody. Expendable workforce. And do you think the Van Graffs should be concerned about upsetting a buyer who's trying to short-change them? The customer is always right? Oh please...

Uh... why?


Tricked? I don't think anyone's dim enough to not see that one coming, unless they're 7 years old or something.



When was the last time you saw a legion assassin squad in Freeside? Even if they cared, which they don't, they couldn't do [censored] until the game ends and you side with the Legion.

It wasn't a client, as a few people have already said it wasa Van Graff thug probably one who offended the Van Graffs in some way.
Cass is tied with ED-E as being my favourite companion so I only completed the Van Graff quest line recently(roleplaying a different character) and I didn't really find anything particularly wrong with it. Her perk definitely isn't the reason why I like her so much, but rather that she can get both of her quest perks which make her a complete badass. Whiskey Rose is okay, but I've never found much use for it. I prefer to leave my inventory as open as possible for scavenging and a max of +6 DT isn't enough to make me think otherwise.
As for Baptiste killing Cass, he said that he was tying up a loose end, as in the one person who survived the caravan slaughter. Everything he said just lead me to believe exactly what everyone else in Freeside says, he loves to kill people.

Note: It was so obvious that he wanted to kill her. You simply have to talk to anyone else in Freeside or even listen to him to know that he loves killing things. What did you think he was going to do with her, give her a receipt and say sorry for turning your caravan into ash and goo?

Lets break this down shall we?




1. It wasn't a client nor was the man who was shot associated with the Omerta agent. He was presumably a prisoner or a rival who pissed them off.



2. Why? I hate Cass. It was a joy to have Jean-Baptiste kill her. Hell I would have payed him 350 caps just for him to do it.

If you like Cass, well, thats your prerogative. Not the fault of the questline though.




3. The NCR has no jurisdiction over freeside. So they can't. Not to mention (as you conviently said) the Van Graffs are well armed and well-trained.



4. It was pretty clear he wasn't just going to talk to her and have a nice chat. Apparently you didn't pick up on it. Again, not the fault of the quest.




5. Who says they will? But the Legion has to get through the NCR first, and the Van Graffs have made a deal with the NCR which guarantee's their protection.



6. Yeah, you can sit back and let the Van Graffs do the job. But if you want extra XP you'll have to do a little work yourself. I see nothing wrong with this dynamic.



/thread

Wow, seems like I ruffled a few feathers with my comments! Yeah, nice pun there, I "cry" a lot over things that I dislike in a game. Am I not entitled to my opinion? I believe firmly this was a poorly written & executed quest chain. Actually, the information about how Jean-Baptiste wants to kill people is only really available if you talk to Beatrix in Mormon Park - I've yet to encounter any other NPC who talks at all about him.

Ok, assuming the guy was a prisoner was great, however I stand by my statement of how this part of the quest is flawed. If you remember correctly, when you enter the building you are literally stopped, and prevented from going further by orders of the guards. Personally, I'm not about to disobey when 4 guys armed with plasma rifles tell me to stop, so I couldn't even see past the wall as to whether it was a guard, a goon, prisoner or whoever that is shot.

No, it's not the fault of the questline to kill her, though the pay for it, and rewards are atrocious. In total you get what, maybe 1500 caps? That's not even enough to get you into Vegas. IMO, for the loss of a permanent companion in the game, the rewards should be way higher. Like, at least a freaking discount at the store! Also, some of you may not know of a perk you can gain if you use lots of substances, which increases the duration of them. If you have that, like my character does, along with have Survival as a tagged skill, it makes Whiskey Rose far, far more superior than if you didn't have this combination. For those of you who hate Cass, that's fine, you obviously have no issue with this part of the quest, like I did. I'm trying to play a merchant character, who hoards bottle caps, does odd jobs, etc. I really liked the one aspect of this job where you don the armor & energy weapon, and guard the front door, but that was it.

Not really. The VanGraffs made a deal for the NCR to buy guns from them. That's it. They still hate each other. But yes, trust me, though I've changed my mind about going Legion on this playthrough, on my next evil playthrough I will for sure return to pay the VanGraffs a vengenace visit from a high ranking member of the Legion.

For the last issue, I do. It's a free ride, and I hate seeing these in a game. I didn't get any "this is awesome!" cheer moment. I looked, and after the dialogue from Glory, realized instantly what was about to happen. Hoping that there would be a huge, amazing gunfight, I'm let down with the use of the KO grenade, and see the Legion run away, as the NCR chase them into the warehouse to finish them off. The only time I had even a remote amount of fun doing this was when I ran in after them, and went to execute the NCR soldiers, and try to get the Legion to survive.

Lobotomite, I have to agree with you. They are my 2, and only followers so far, and I love them both. Please don't anyone spoil it for me, but I look forward to finding out more about ED-E, and whatever his deal is, and also finish Cass' quest chain, also. (Just need to get rid of all of this damn negative karma first.) No, actually I thought he was a businessman, being as how he was, I don't know, part of running a huge, family run business. I know he's supposedly the "black sheep" (no pun intended) of the family, but realistically why is he here? He serves no purpose whatsoever, beyond killing Cass. So, yeah...the only time you get even a clue about him killing her, is if you turn down the deal, and then he spills the beans about the "fun part." Why would I not choose to turn down the deal? Oh, because the quest chain punishes you early on for not doing exactly what you are told at every turn! IE, you don't get as much rewards.

Haha, wow Xetirox, you sure did read a lot into that statment! Did I say, I was going to boycott Bethesda/Obsidian if they didn't change this quest chain? No. I'm just saying, with it not being up to a high standard of quality, like it should be for what I consider a game made by professionals, I'm not as pleased with how good it should, and could be. Maybe I should have instead said, I won't be as likely to pay full price for one of their games, if this is the level of content I am getting. I had planned on buying the Ultimate Edition, so I could get into the DLC content as well, but now I may want to wait until the price of it (whatever it will be) comes down. That is, unless more is done to fix the base game, like bug fixes, additions to quest chains like these, etc.

So, there's my reply, lol. Sorry if I offended anyone, I can be very...expressive with my displeasure at times. I'm likely the hugest Fallout fan here, and am hyper critical of what is one of my favorite franchises. I just want this game to be the very best it can be, and not merely feel more like a rather large Fallout 3 mod.

Yes you are, and we are likewise entitled to reject your opinion and offer a counter-argument to your critique.



....

How is it flawed? Its flawed that you yourself had trouble seeing what's going on? The rest of us picked up on the fact that it wasn't a client being killed.



So then don't do any more of the questline. Nothing forces you to kill Cass, noone tells you "HEY you need to work for the Van Graffs". If at any point you started to feel uncomfortable about working for them, then you should have stopped. Nothing for it.

I like "kill Cass" part of the questline. A questline isn't flawed simply because it asks you to kill a companion that YOU like and find value in (and doesn't force you to).

Personally I find Cass a [censored] and never hire her. She's fairly worthless IMO.



So everything has to be a "super awesome cool gunfight" for you to have fun?

I enjoyed the ending to the quest for the simple pleasure of watching a double-cross unfold before me, which was something I hadn't expected to happen.