Sithis, a god AND Primordial force of creation? : The Elder Scrolls Series Discussion

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:55 pm

That's...not how the myths describe him. Saying he's "the void" or "The Nothing" is closer to Padomay than Sithis. Most myths paint him more as an active force, rather than NOTHING. Sithis was the finger that pushes the big red button that starts the machine, the winds that move the sea, and so on and so forth.

And it's better to describe Anuel as Stasis.

Think of it as this, you have the most simple of polar points, Padomay and Anu, or IS-NOT and IS, 0 and infinity

Then you get their souls, Sithis and Anuel, or Chaos and Stasis

Then you get the soul of the soul, The Space God and The Time God.

You know, although the Space God is often said to be born of Sithis and the Time God born of Anuel, it kinda makes more sense if the Time God was born of Sithis (aka Corrupting Inexpressible Action, Change Without Design, Chaos) and if the Space God (of Limits) was born of Anuel (aka Everlasting Ineffable Light, Stasis, Order).

The greater truth, though, is that Lorkhan and Auri-El are brother-sisters, born of the father Sithis, who impregnated Stasis with them. Joined at the brain, Auri-El killed Lorkhan's body, but the brain they share is alive, hence why Lorkhan forgets that he's dead and Auri-El is all crazy-sorts and hears voices in his head.

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:33 am

Sithis is chaos, the unstoppable object, etc. This Hist also acknowledge this, and it's mentioned enough times in the Monomyth to get the idea. Pretty sure even the Yokudans, which call this "The Hum."

What the Dark Brotherhood believes in a completely warped idea of what Sithis is. At best, they're mistaking him for Lorkhan, for he is the god of space, of which defines and limits. And as such, they worship this 'limit' aspect by limiting the life of mortals (i.e. killing them). At worst, they're all on a bunch of skooma, and burned out their brains too horrifically.

I think the interesting part about Tamriel is how people hold different views about deities, and even their view of mortal lives on Mundus. I don't think that the Brotherhood's worship of Sithis is any different than how different groups in Thedas view Lorkhan very differently. It's natural for people to hold different religious views, even assassins.

In all honesty, the whole Sithis [censored] needs to be stopped immediately, and they should go back to Melphala, as the Dark Brotherhood was founded by Morag Tong agents who were sick on working only in Morrowind and only for Great House nobles of Morrowind. [censored], the only time we got acknowledge of this was in Daggerfall, because at least they know their heritage more than the [censored] ups in Cyrodiil. Even the MW guys paid respects towards 'The Night Mother' at the highest level, not this stupid "WE SPILL BLUUD FOR SITHISSSSSS!!!!" [censored].

Weren't the Vvardenfell branch of the Dark Brotherhood fixated on Mehrunes Dagon? And the Night Mother of Morrowind was Severa Magia.

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:21 pm

Weren't the Vvardenfell branch of the Dark Brotherhood fixated on Mehrunes Dagon? And the Night Mother of Morrowind was Severa Magia.

I thought they were just camping out. Where did you get the Mehrunes Dagon fixation from?

» Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:06 am

Also, never take religious teachings on coked up meth heads who also like to rub the blood of their victims on themselves.

Damn. I guess I have to stop listening to my pastor now. :sad:

But, really, I think the OP has a point. Sure, the Sithis Sithis was just all Sithisy and boring chaos, but since the DB worship Sithis as a god of stabbin', whose to say there isn't a stabby Sithis as well? One of the things pretty much all the Daedric princes have in common is that they enjoy stabbing people, so perhaps the DB worship a composite deity, composed of the shattered souls of Sithis, re-unified by their worship? What makes you say this god is any less real than, say, Kyne?

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:39 pm

You're quite right. The Sithis of the Darkbrotherhood isn't the same as the one in the myths.

"Sithis was born when a nihilist sect of the already doom-ridden Chimeri merged (under Mephala’s tutelage) Daedric elements with the Inexpressible Action that was Padomay.

(...)

Whatever the case, the Padomay [Sithis] of Morrowind (and isolated Dark Brotherhood sects) is not the Padomay of Artaeum...."
- http://www.imperial-library.info/content/source-chaos

But try to look beyond the murder itself.

...they [the Dark Brotherhood] are an organization devoted to playing out the eternal interplay of Nir. Assassination, they say, is the purest celebration of joy or living."- http://www.imperial-library.info/content/source-chaos

You have to realize that the Dark Brotherhood ultimately has it's roots in the Velothi exodus. Lorkhan brought back mortality to the Aurbis, in with it the flux of new ideas. Through murder they replay what Lorkhan did to the Aedra, making room for new ideas.

And some tangentially related posts. Couldn't find a good one where I argue that the statue of Sithis is Lorkhan (grim reaper, god of death, in a cage of earth bones).

You should see Sithis in the context of the Velothi exodus. Which started in the Late Middle Merethic when Boethia inspired the Prophet Veloth to convince his Chimer followers to renounce all ties to the Aldmer and found a new nation based on Daedric principles. To make his point Boethia ate the Altmer god-hero Trinimac when he tried to stop the exodus. He then spoke with the Voice of Trinimac and [censored] (defeciated) him out and accorinding to the legend Trinimac became the Daedric Prince Malacath. Incidentally Trinimacs followers became the Orsimer. Afterwards the Velothi moved on to Morrowind and eventually became the Dunmer.

The basis for the belief can be found the the various creation myths. Briefly put, Lorkhan convinced the Aedra to give up parts of themselves to create a new world. Yet the world didn't quite turn out to be what the Aedra expected and Lorkhan was punished for it. Then depending on the myth, the Aedra either die or leave. This strange because they are still actively present in many religions.
The most obvious difference between the Aedra and the Daera is that the Daedra are generally speaking perceived in the same fashion. Yet the Aedra are mutable and reflect the local sympathies and cultural attitude. This gives rise to the suggestion that perhaps that the Aedra are no more then the ghost of gods. The power of mortal belief impressed upon their sacrificed bodies.

Please keep in mind this is a very brief summary. Especially the second part. If you want to read more you can try some of these links:

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/merethic-era
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/boethiah
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-changed-ones
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-true-nature-orcs
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/pocket-guide-empire-first-edition-morrowind

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-monomyth
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/daggerfall-light-and-dark
http://www.imperial-library.info/content/morrowind-varieties-faith-empire

Sithis has been worked on by several designers at different times. In Daggerfall Sithis was just another god, coincidently the patron of the Dark Brotherhood. Emil thought of Sithis as Dark version of God with matching virgin and child. MK though depicted Sithis as a fundamental force.

The connection between the two is a philosophy class gone wrong. http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/chaos.shtml explains the relation. Now the Statue of Sithis gives good evidence to show that Sithis is embodied by Lorkhan. Which metaphysically speaking, has always been a given fact. In this case the connection with death works through the creation of Mundus, with Mundus Lorkhan brought mortality back to the Aurbis. Immortal gods could die again as they did before the dawn of time.

This also rationalizes the idea of Mephala as the Nightmother as only together with Lorkhan she can be the mother of Murder.

So in short:

Darkbrotherhood: Sithis is a fridge with the door closed.
Crimson Fangs: Sithis is look like Grim-Reaper Lorkhan.
Everybody else:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drE5cHe6c3s

And postcount++;

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:47 pm

Thanks Proweler!

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:17 pm

Nice proweler. With mythopeia it seems like the Daedric Princes are, in some ways, the ones that keep things stable in Mundus Lol. Constantly shifting ideas and beliefs mean constantly shifting gods/Aedra, which means constantly shifting values, which in effect promote chaos, make sense? Unless the people of Tamriel are incredibly uncreative.

If mythopeia is really true in TES, why are there not more like 100/unlimited aspects of the 9 divines just within the 9 Divine's faithful? Everyone has a different idea of how a god/God is. Or are the effects of mythopeia extremely limited and only effect what is already there, such as the Aedric spirits? Are the Aedra even capable of thought with the huge jumble of thoughts and beliefs that are rolling in around their heads? Is that why they seem inept at acting directly? Well other than the fact they are disembodied Spirits essentially.

Excuse me I am just thinking out loud through typing. Would appreciate a response though.

» Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:08 am

If mythopeia is really true in TES, why are there not more like 100/unlimited aspects of the 9 divines just within the 9 Divine's faithful? Everyone has a different idea of how a god/God is. Or are the effects of mythopeia extremely limited and only effect what is already there, such as the Aedric spirits? Are the Aedra even capable of thought with the huge jumble of thoughts and beliefs that are rolling in around their heads? Is that why they seem inept at acting directly? Well other than the fact they are disembodied Spirits essentially.

Basically, I think it comes down to scale. An individual isn't enough to drive a god's corpse to do anything noticeable. A lone loon who believes in the time-mongoose isn't going to be enough to get Akatosh to incarnate as a giant mongoose and ride that mongoose into battle. But a whole culture's worth of belief might be enough to get Akatosh to show up and punch Dagon in the face. If that lone loon got enough followers, and founded an empire, well, then we might see a lot more mongeese in Tamriel.

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:28 pm

"Long, long ago, before there were any people at all; even before the gods, Tamriel was chosen as a battleground by two -- things. It is difficult to find words that fit them well. I call them the Light and the Dark. Others use different names. Good and Evil, Bird and Serpent, Order and Chaos. None of these names really apply. It suffices that they are opposites, and totally antithetical. Neither is really good or evil, as we know the words. They are immortal since they do not really live, but they do exist. Even the gods and their daedric enemies are pale reflections of the eternal conflict between them. It's as though their struggle creates energies that distort their surroundings, and those energies are so powerful that life can appear, like an eddy in a stream."- http://www.imperial-library.info/content/daggerfall-light-and-dark

Going by this it's not about the individuals or the group, but rather if their ideas align with the underlying structure of conflict in the Auribs. In the case of Mundus, a bunch of dead gods, something which I suppose makes them more mallable.

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:05 pm

Basically, I think it comes down to scale. An individual isn't enough to drive a god's corpse to do anything noticeable. A lone loon who believes in the time-mongoose isn't going to be enough to get Akatosh to incarnate as a giant mongoose and ride that mongoose into battle. But a whole culture's worth of belief might be enough to get Akatosh to show up and punch Dagon in the face. If that lone loon got enough followers, and founded an empire, well, then we might see a lot more mongeese in Tamriel.

Well i figured that that would be true but then how is it that there is Alkosh, Alduin, Akatosh, Auri-El, and all those aspects when there is one being? Seems like the biggest beliefs would define the god then. But it seems like it is not so as I previously mentioned there are different aspects.

What I believe you are implying, inadvertently or not, is that there is a measurable number of beliefs that need to be relatively similar to create another aspect of one of the Aedra. So how many times can an Aedra split into different personalities/aspects? What happens if the 'belief bar' dips beneath that certain point? Does that aspect cease to exist even though a few people believe in it?

I see lots of problems with this theory for some reason. Mythopeia may be real in TES but the multiple aspects part throws a wrench in it for me. At least in how it was explained. Plus I am being nit-picky here as I notice people get comfortable with their theories. I get the concept of it but it seems like it does not fit well in certain areas.

I like to think of the beliefs going into molds. These molds are what the Aedra were like before they died and became spirits and impotent gods in comparison to the power they had before. People's beliefs need to be in line with these molds up to a point for an aspect to start to become defined. The specifics of the beliefs are what shape the god after it comes out of the mold.

I think of a lamp with translucent glass panels on it. The lamp itself is the mold. But the panels have different colors and use the same energy source(beliefs) to give them life. The beliefs are the panels and the colors are the small variations in beliefs between different cultures. But they are all powered by the same light source or beliefs. It is the same lantern but it casts different aspects of light from its source.

Man that anology barely even makes sense to me. Bad wording I think...

"Long, long ago, before there were any people at all; even before the gods, Tamriel was chosen as a battleground by two -- things. It is difficult to find words that fit them well. I call them the Light and the Dark. Others use different names. Good and Evil, Bird and Serpent, Order and Chaos. None of these names really apply. It suffices that they are opposites, and totally antithetical. Neither is really good or evil, as we know the words. They are immortal since they do not really live, but they do exist. Even the gods and their daedric enemies are pale reflections of the eternal conflict between them. It's as though their struggle creates energies that distort their surroundings, and those energies are so powerful that life can appear, like an eddy in a stream."- http://www.imperial-library.info/content/daggerfall-light-and-dark

Going by this it's not about the individuals or the group, but rather if their ideas align with the underlying structure of conflict in the Auribs. In the case of Mundus, a bunch of dead gods, something which I suppose makes them more malleable.

So you are saying that the gods cannot be changed dramatically from what they truly are but beliefs can only make them stray from their original selves to a range of distances? You are also saying that so long as it is in line with the cosmic forces that are in conflict they can become those beliefs?

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:40 pm

I'm no expert, but IMO the DB more or less just viewed Sithis as the source of their power, not as an actual sentient being or their leader.

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:48 pm

So you are saying that the gods cannot be changed dramatically from what they truly are but beliefs can only make them stray from their original selves to a range of distances? You are also saying that so long as it is in line with the cosmic forces that are in conflict they can become those beliefs?

There are radical difference between the gods we know right now. However they always cover a certain limited set of what, by lack of any other word, might be called concepts. I wouldn't say it's possible to outline any specific god underneath, just establish their similarity.

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:13 pm

sithis is....a mystery

» Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:41 pm

Not really.