The topic at hand is that in this character building system, there are a TON of skills and builds that are broken and/or exploitable.

You can break the game with 100 Smithing, 100 Enchanting. You can break the game with 100 Alchemy and uber poisons + invis spam + steroid buffs.

The fun part is breaking the game in new and creative ways, or starting with a focus on a certain style and roleplay of a character. Just say to yourself "I'm a super Nordic Nord fighter and I do smithing but [censored] enchanting and alchemy" and run with it.


I would agree in general that Smith/Ench/Alch are slightly too powerful -- the initial bonuses for those support skills should be higher, and they should scale slower towards the top end, but in the end it's really the player's choice if they want to craft godlike gear.

The problem is that your definition of "Min/Maxing" seems to take for granted the existence of an overpowered element. Worst then that, you are stuck in a circular logic because you base yourself on that first assumption to deduce that its normal for there to be an overpowered element.

The thing is, it doesnt, and its not. Every game has a path that is considered better then others, thats just normal (its impossible to perfectly balance everything), but its not normal for that path to be so glaringly superior to the others that it makes them seem oblivious. That is what is happening right now with dual-weild and +% one hand damage enchanted smithed gear.

Min/Maxing can be the most fun ever, but for that it needs all option to be at an equivalent level. In such a case, you have OPTIONS to min/max, different paths to take, and people arguing for years about whats the best. In this case there is not: instead, the option is to stop min/maxing.

Personally, im going for a 2h greatsword + Block build, cause I dont feel like [censored] dragons without trying, would make this boring TO ME. But i do feel sad that I have to try and do a funky build for fun because I know that if I tried to maximize my offensive power, as i normally would do, then im breaking the game. I feel like im half-assing it.

P.S. Saying something is boring in caps, its like saying you are an idiot in caps. Its an opinion, dont present it as an irrefutable fact.

Wow. Someone complaining that they spent all their in game time maxing out two professions at an early level and then wrecking everything....lol. It is a RPG it is not a MMO. You can choose how to play and if you want to break the game or not. I choose to role play a Nord paladin who uses only one handed and blacksmithing as a skill and I choose to not max my BS until I reach level 50. The game is plenty challenging for me because I want it to be. My next play through I may over powere the hell out of my char ealry.

Would you rather have Beth put artificial limits on how quickly you can power level your skill such as BS and Enchanting and block your path to becoming a god until the end game or perhaps never? I love the model they have implimented that provides freedom of choice to play how I want to play and set my own challenged. I am my own DM like I have never been before.

Those items are sick, where do you get those legendary items? Can they be crafted?

so before you could break the game with spellmaking, now ypu can with crafting.


And apparantely the later is bad...

I didn't play the previous Elder Scrolls game.

But I did play other games where I could use the system to make my character overly strong.

Final Fantasy 8 is a perfect example of this. The monster's scaled with you. The first time I went through the game I didn't do this. I played the game leveling as I went and learning skills when they went up on their own.

The second time I did this:
Early in the game you can get Quezacotl and Diablos. Quezacotl had an ability that let you destroy a weakened mob and give you an item. You'd get no exp for killing the mob but you'd still get ap. I'd keep using this ability until Diablos learned the ability no encounter. This turned off all random encounters in the game. I took 2 characters with Squall who I didn't care if they leveled from boss fights. I left Zell and Irvine behind because I wanted them in my final group. I then played through the entire game at level 8-10 until I was able to get to Cactuar Island. The Cactuars were worth massive ap and very little exp. I then took Zell and Irvine and learned all the abilities that grant them +stats on level up. By the end they had max stats, full elemental absorb, and immune to everything. I could enter a fight, activate a Hero and limit break with Irvine for 9999 as fast as I could tap the trigger button. There was nothing in the entire game that could even hurt me.

It wasn't cheating to do this. I didn't use any special codes. I just used the system to my advantage to create overpowered characters. Most people wouldn't even bother doing this.

Now in Skyrim. I've maxed Smithing and made my Daedric Axe and a suit of Heavy Dragon Armor. I upgraded my Axe to Legendary with a store bought Smithing Potion and when I kill a few more Dragons I'll do the same for my armor. The game is still pretty challenging for me even on normal mode. My skill level isn't that high. I'm honestly not that good at this game.

And I won't go to the extremes these people have went to my first run through but I like that if I decide to go through it a second time I can really make my guy overpowered like I did in FF8.

All TES games have allowed obscenely powerful characters through various mechanics.

Was anyone seriously expecting Skyrim would be different?

You can argue for change, but in the meantime you might want to get used to it, since it probably won't.

Many people cope by playing narrower or interesting but not overpowered characters. Others try and see how many different ways they can reach godlike levels of power. Pick your route, or don't.

Be who you want, do what you want, even if it means becoming a god.

Well its not that much of an abusing after all alchemy/enchants synergy made:

The enchant potion you can buy from vendors from 25% enchant alchemy to 32%
The potion smithing from vendors from 60& to 130%

Everything else is just aquired using those pots bonuses you would still be able to do it with stock potions and it would still rock your socks off :hubbahubba:

You can make pretty overpowered potions and enchants without even having one perks in those trees.

Exactly. The only thing that forces you to take perks is Smithing.

yeah it would be better if the skill level determined if you can smith your armor and not the actual perk. So if you get to 100 skill in smithing you can make dragon armor and upgrade it to fine but if you got the perk you can get it to legendary.

One problem is that i barely even went out of my way to get all this gear, everytime i'd enter a town i'd go to the local stores and buy all there soulstones and iron ore / ingots to level up my skills but the way i see it thats fairly normal practice, i mean i have all this gold and nothing to spend it on i way as well lv up my skills with it and while i am a min / max type of player i also enjoy roleplaying my characters, as such when i made my orc warrior i decided not to use any skills that a orc warrior wouldn't use such as all magic, lock picking, alchemy, sneaking ect. I also decided i could only use quick travel to travel to major citys.

Another issue is that this game is just horribly balanced when it gives you access to all this gear that makes even the hardest difficulty seem like novice difficulty. I enjoy advancing my character i don't want to have to use bad gear for the rest of my characters career just to keep a game balanced because the devs failed to do so. What they need to do is nerf enchanting and smithing, no one needs gear that makes you into a god, if you want that then use a script.

I just think you should be able to create insane weapons, obviously people who don't dabble in blacksmithing or enchanting won't be able to do this. I have messed with blacksmithing, but haven't messed with enchanting. I do start the game though trying to find the most ridiculous dungeons and try to get unique/named weapons when I'm only level 3. You can always go with master difficulty and not move any of those skills up, or try to beat the game at level 10. There are also people who buy the game for PC and have already done the console command within minutes. This is more or less a want it now society and I can't blame Bethesda for putting that kind of ability in a game where you play solo.

I think blacksmithing and enchantments should not create gear that is as good as rewards from daedric lords. At most it should be nearly as good as daedric lord rewards, but never exceed it. Rewards from daedric lords should be the most powerful. The idea that a mere human can be better than all-powerful daedric lords in forging gear is preposterous.

I also read that blacksmithing does not suffer from diminishing returns when crafting iron daggers. I think alchemy does suffer from diminishing returns, so blacksmithing should as well.

What would make more sense is being able to craft legendary items like that, but having to spend so many perks in order to be able to do so that you'd never be able to effectively use them in combat.

There are tons of fantasy worlds/settings that speak of legendary smiths that craft insanely powerful weapons and armor, but in nearly all of those the smiths never actually use them for themselves. Cause they're smiths, not warriors. No point in having a blade that can cut through rocks if you don't know how to swing it, so to speak.

Unfortunately, since this is not an MMO, being a legendary smith like in the examply above isn't exactly possible. You can only smith items for, well, yourself really. This being a single player game and all. And there's no fun in being a legendary smith if you're the only one capable of acknowledging it. And there's no fun in being able to make epic gear if no one can use it. So it wouldn't work.

So either they need to patch Skyrim to be an MMO, or they should just nerf BS and enchanting a bit really. Maybe just making them cost a bit more perks could fix a lot really. Especially smithing.

I'm level 29 and still using full steel plate armor and my trusty Skyforge Steel Sword, and I am greatly loving the challenge. Not to mention I love the look of that armor and weapon.

Yeah, but that requires a certain amount of min/max. In Morrowind, I put my majors in stuff that I actually used. Between that and enchanting, I became so powerful that I could just stand around and let people hit me until I got bored, and then annihilate everyone. I don't want it to be easy, but I want to be able to do it.


I didn't know about that. Then again, Oblivion didn't pull me anything like Morrowind did -- or like Skyrim is, for that matter.

All I've read so far in this topic is about warrior-type characters and a few stealths. What about mages? Is enchanting OP for them too?

I'm still a lowly lvl 18 pure-mage right now, but from what I gather the offensive magic doesn't really scale well. All that scales well with enchantments, levels and perks is magicka and magicka regen.
If this is so, then even with max enchanting mages will never be able to one-shot anything big. They might be able to regen their entire magicka-pool in 1 second, I don't know, but it shouldn't change their attack much.

Are there any mages around that can comment on this? Because the talk of nerfing enchanting here is only based on warrior-type builds.

You can make a heavy armor mage that has 0 mana casting on 2 major spell trees like con/destruction or alteration/destruction and just spam 2 artnochs + highest destruction magic you like or spam the 80% less psychical damage from alteration and go close combat with a blade/blade - blade/spell - spell/spell combo.

In this scenario you can have just basic mana level and up your health:stamina ratio like 3:1 and become a tanker with enough stamina to power wield or sprint a lot. The perks you can save from this move can be spent in different trees like heavy armor etc making you pretty resistent like a normal meele character.

Ok, but is there any way to do a classic mage build? What you are describing is a necromancer/druid/combat-mage. The 0 mana on destruction-tree seems nice, but I'm not interested in summoning anything. I'm already compromising atm by having a tank-companion that I heal with restoration. That way I'm a "true" mage, but still have a buffer/distraction. I have nothing against using heavier armor types, but don't want to become a melee char or summoner if at all possible.

Regardless of balancing I'm currently disappointed at the way the destruction tiers work. Since I've got my fireball spell I've only used it a handful of times for two reasons:
1. It's AOE. This means that I can't use it on anything that is even remotely close to my tank-companion.
2. It's dmg/magicka ratio is really bad for single targets. It only works if I can hit 2 or more targets, but the only time they clump up like that is when #1 is a problem.

I really wish the higher tier spells were just better and not different, because that makes much more sense.

Yes you can go pure mage and not use summons but it will be a bit harder because mobs will atack you not the companion/summon so you will need illusion, alteration and destruction a lot. But destruction dosnt scale so it gets a pee shooter later on and illusion (while I didnt test it myself, just heared it) my cap at some point and stop working on your foes making it loose the CC benefit. Alteration has a 80% psychical damage reduction spell and resist magic perks to keep you alive longer. Still you will need to enchant your gear and use potions ( no need to perk alchemy/smithing/enchant ) to have some helpfull bonuses.