Here's an interesting concept:
Would the inclusion of Pop Culture, heroes and villains enhance your Fallout experience?

So, feel free to bring ideas, concepts, and characters to the table...but if at all possible avoid lists!

No they are alright in special encounters (the bridge in fallout 2 referencing Monty Python). But even fallout 2 was a little to gimicky with all the pop-culture.

This probably doesn't relate, but I wan't to see Klaatu and Gort. I think it would be cool to see them have a conversation and maybe include you in that conversation.

No, I like it when a game is interesting enough to not need pop-culture. I thought it was weird enough when I discovered Monty Python and Star Wars easter eggs in the originals.

Yes, yes, we get it. You along with every other Elder Scrolls fan who went and played the original games after Bethesda announced Fallout 3. For those of us there from the beginning though, those special encounters and references were part of what made us all fall in love with the games in the first place. They're what made the games unique. It's all part of why the fan base for the originals is so hard core. The humor, the setting, the overall tone...and yes, these moments helped with it all.

They didn't disappear with Fallout 3 either, if anything at times they could be overplayed, like Canterbury Commons. Those two idiots fighting each other were horrible characters, and if you have the lady killer perk, the situation starts to make no sense and as characters they become totally unmemorable which was pathetic. The original games didn't always take themselves seriously, but neither did a lot of RPGs in the 90s, which made them special. This whole 21st century idea of a gritty and realistic, as in what could happen only in our RPG has always bothered me, these games aren't real life, they are supposed to be funny at times with extreme characters that make themselves memorable, which gives the air of goofiness of nonsensical fairytale, but in reality becomes plausible within the game. They also act as a reward for the player that helps with getting through the storyline.

Well, that was one of the worst aspects of the original fallouts. In a roleplying environment, there should never be references to the outside world. There was a fair amount of fan dislike for how over the top the special encounters...and the out of character humor had become in Fallout 2.

So i am glad there are no FO2 style special encounters in FO3.

Exactly.



Wrong on both counts. For one, as I stated, it seems many of the Elder Scroll fans either don't "get" or don't like the S.E.'s but the fact remains, those were a part of what helped define the series. If you had been around at the fansites and message boards back then you'd know how beloved those S.E.'s (I think I'll abbrv. from now on!) were. The problems people had in Fallout 2 were that the references started leaking into the actual game itself, not the special encounters as they were. People also had major issues with Fallout 2 not taking itself as seriously or gravely as Fallout 1 had, but this wasn't everybody. People seemed split into about 3 camps: those who felt the added silliness detracted too much from the game itself, those who loved the new humorous aspects, and those who couldn't be bothered either way because they were impressed with the improvements in quest & dialog depth and the enhanced scope of the game.

Secondly, I think we've gone over this before: Yes, there are S.E.'s in Fallout 3, they're just implemented in a different way. Do you think "Grognak the Barbarian" is not a "Conan the Barbarian" reference? There is also a Fear Factory reference and at least one definite Simpsons reference just to name a few off the top of my head.. Also, as has been mentioned before, not all the S.E.'s in the Fallout games were pop-culture related. Many referenced the game itself, or the genre in general. There are instances of this in Fallout 3 with the Roach King and the Canterbury Commons town and quest, as Zax brings up.

Speak for yourself, I despised the special encounters as they ruined the immersion, and I'm no less of an old school fan than you or anyone else. They weren't really a problem in the original Fallout since there really weren't any immersion breaking special encounters, but in Fallout 2 it was just ridiculous.

Are you telling me you disagree with this:



I felt like I spoke for exactly how I remember the situation happening. You actually even agreed with me by saying "they weren't a problem for me in the original" but not only that, as I keep saying over and over, they were a part of the game that helped define the series.

Also, to compare:

In Fallout one there were approximately 7 S.E.'s and 2 of them were pop-culture references.

In Fallout two there were around 17 S.E.'s that consisted of: 1 reference to Fallout 1, 1 reference to the early Fallout message boards, 5 pop-culture references (one of which was so rare you actually needed a patch to see it) and the rest were in-game specific.

So, saying it was SO over the top isn't really correct considering the math, unless you just mean there were too many S.E.'s over-all (but most of the time to get that many in one play-through you have to willingly choose perks which enhance your chances of seeing them). I really don't get the argument about S.E.'s here.

Wrong FOR YOU maybe.

And I was a fallout fan long before I played any TES game. Perhaps you should avoid making those sweeping statements.

The outside references in FO3 could be part of the world...that is they are easy to overlook. Why wouldn't there be comic books in the Fallout World? But a bridgekeeper in a well known MP quest? I don't think so. Now ay to work that into the FO world, even if you do claim that SEs are somehow exempt.

I'm in the camp of those who thought Fallout 2 didn't take itself as seriously as the first title, but I didn't bother with it. Most references were a good laugh. Especially now that I'm replaying it, I find more references than the last time I played, that was 8 years ago and I wasn't fluent in English.

In Fallout 3, the thing with the Mecanist and the AntAgonizer was really, really bad. And in a bad way I mean, not humoristic. If it would have been part of a special encounter in the wastes, it would have been funny. But as part of a side quest it was rediculous. I was really glad I put an end to the lives of those two atrocities. I wished I could have dealt with the kid who loved the Mechanist too.

Anyways, yes let's include pop culture in the next games, but at least keeping it a bit subtle. Not thrown in the player's face or, even worst, as part of a side quest.

The special encounters are forced on you, in the original Fallout there weren't really any immersion breaking encounters so I had no problem with those. I replayed it recently, and didn't find any over the top SEs, but of course I could have missed them. In Fallout 2 it's impossible to avoid them, and there's a lot. A bridge keeper that complains about being in a low budget video game? The "Cafe of Broken Dreams" and its Fallout 1 character rejects? Encountering "Arthur's Knights" multiple times? A crashed Star Trek shuttle? You can't really call them "non-canon" because Fallout 2 is very much canon, and those ridiculous encounters were part of the experience. When I play an RPG with an atmosphere that is supposed to have a certain degree of seriousness to it, I don't like crap like that unless it's subtle and doesn't kill the immersion factor. I like Fallout 2, but it would have been a much better game without those "special encounters" in my opinion.

You may be able to shrug them off as a good laugh, but I consider the special encounters a very significant gaping flaw in Fallout 2.

First off, how is there anything wrong with what I said? I didn't target you and I said "many" not "all" so correct me if I'm wrong, but there certainly seem to be more Elder Scrolls fans who don't "get" or "like" the S.E.'s than there are Fallout fans who don't. Secondly, it's really hard to know who's telling the truth and who's embellishing to try and beef up their arguments and anyhow I could really care who was is or isn't an old fan. That wasn't even part of the meat of my statement. Thirdly, when I say "wrong on both counts" I mean that back when the Fallout games came out the S.E.'s were accepted and generally well-liked by the majority of the online communities, so no not just "wrong for ME". If you are going to be making objective-looking statements about what was or wasn't a good part of those games, inherently, as through the eyes of the majority of Fallout fans, yes you are wrong.



There's no difference here between what you think is worthy and what you don't. Is Monty Python known to everybody? Is it known more or less than Conan or the Simpsons? And really, that ONE example you keep bringing up is the generic default reference which you'll even find in wiki's as a complaint. That ONE thing. Is that really it? It wasn't even a significant part of the game. Funny that you should be one of the people harping on others who like to "nitpick". :rolleyes: I just gave an example between the S.E.'s of games 1 & 2 and out of 17 different S.E.'s in Fallout 2, only four of them are common pop-culture references while the others are in-game specific. Again I question your argument for anything other than "I refuse to concede" and/or "I'm arguing for the sake of the argument".

So how is Doctor Who or Godzilla any different? Or an alien crash? No really, aside from there being more, as I asked you in my previous post, how is it any different? Unless you chose a very high Luck and perks which enhanced your chances of S.E. situations, how is it any more game-breaking? And on top of that...isn't it telling that after feedback from Fallout 1 they actually put in a few different perks to enhance your chances of gaining those S.E.'s?

I'll say this one time. You are clever enough to have already figured this out, I think, which makes it worse, IMO. You understand how charged discussions like this can be. Divisive comments don't play well. If we want an honest and productive exchange of ideas, we need to avoid those sorts of things. When respect only moves one way in a discussion, there is no discussion at all. I tend to respect, although I often do on agree with, what I consider to be die hard Fallout fans. I seldom get the same respect from them. I've had to suffer it in other forums, but I will not suffer it here. Do not assign arguments to me, and do not attempt to link my arguments to others in any way. I am not a TES devoted fan, and I am not a FO devoted fan either. I have never seen a perfect game. FO3 isn't perfect, Oblivion certainly isn't, and FO2 was far from it.

Let's not reconstruct history here. There was substantial backlash on the over the top humor in FO2 as compared to FO1, and the SEs was a big part of that. I didn't like it then, and I don't like it now. I'm a hard core roleplayer and I don ont like outside references in my face while I'm trying to roleplay. It's really that simple. As in all things, that is my opinion. Agree or not, but have the decency to respect that it is my opinion.







T

I absolutely do respect anybody's opinion for being their opinion but sometimes the motives behind an argument can seem suspect. I don't understand why you are still arguing this S.E. scenario but you haven't addressed my comment about not only the very small differences between the S.E.'s in Fallout 1 & 2 based on the ratios between pop-culture but about the difference between Fallout 1 & 2's reception back in the day.

My point remains: Fallout 2 was not merely criticized for the pop-culture in the S.E.'s because as far as the ratios were concerned Fallout 1 did it too. Fallout 2 was criticized more for taking too much of pop-culture and placing it within the actual game.

Whatever you think about the S.E.'s that's fine. You don't have to like them. But earlier you stated rather matter-of-factly that they were an abberation to the games or series while I'm merely stating that no, they weren't. They were part of what originally made the series special (ooh! no pun intended).


Post Script: I'm not sure exactly if you're hinting at me having a sort of B.I./Interplay/Troika vs. Bethesda type grudge here. While I do not care for anything Bethesda has previously done nor do I particularly care for their style of gaming I do not mean to make it appear that they are less worthy of a company or their fans are lesser-than fans. If I say anything with a forked-tongue about the Bethesda side of the camp it is meant only as stick-poking at the other side, as in, "What makes you tick?" nothing more. I can be a sarcastic person but don't mistake that for disrespect.

I don't even remember there being Doctor Who and Godzilla SEs in the original Fallout. I remember finding a large track once, but I don't recall anything saying that it belonged to Godzilla. As for the luck and perks statement, obviously they're going to be easier to find with those. In Fallout 2, you're probably going to find them no matter what your luck is, though. As for the positive feedback from the Fallout community, I'm not speaking for every fan when I say that I don't like the over the top special encounters. If most liked the encounters well good for them, I didn't.

And how is the alien crash site in Fallout 3 immersion breaking? Seriously, I'd like to know. Who says that there isn't intelligent life out there besides us? I don't consider that a breach of the game world because it's not. Just like the Mechanist and Antagonist aren't breaches in the game world, they may be references to pop culture, but they fit within the context of the setting. Does the Mechanist lament about being in a video game? No.

The print was a reference to Godzilla, this is widely acknowledged. The police box is a direct Dr. Who reference. I disagree with the "find them no matter what" line. I played the game a mere month ago and was actually trying my BUTT off to find more of them than just a couple and I couldn't without those perks or high luck and wandering back and forth over every square. As to whether or not you liked them, again, that's fine. I'm just saying, for the umpteenth time, that they were generally a well-liked aspect of the game.



It's not a real part of the game and you get an over-powered weapon which you can actually use in the game? I mean, I love these things. I'm just sayin' man. As I said man, out of 17 S.E.'s in Fallout 2 only 4 of them are pop culture references. The rest would fit right in with the alien crash or the Canterbury Commons quest.

For the record, I loved ALL of them. In Fallouts 1, 2 and 3.

Hm ironic Kjarista, what with all your NMA-legion BS, heh.

Anyway, I'd be ok with no pop-culture references in the game, while the FO2 ones didn't bother me that much and some got me chuckling a bit - the VP and the President's secretary, doubt they would negatively influence the game by disappearing.

It may be a reference to Godzilla, but the track could have been created by an irradiated creature. There's nothing explicitly stating that Godzilla made it in the context of the game world.




I'm pretty sure the alien crash site is a real part of the game. Some might argue that it's not canon, but it's there so it's canon... whether we like it or not. As for the Fallout 2 encounters, I have a hard time not finding them... especially the bridge, the Cafe of Broken Dreams, and the angry posters attacking a spammer demanding multiplayer. These are the ones I hate the most, I might add.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_special_encounters

http://planetfallout.gamespy.com/wiki/Fallout_1_Special_Encounters

http://resolution-magazine.co.uk/issue2/article_falloutretrospective.htm

(Now, I can keep beating this to death if you really want, but it was obviously there as a reference in the same way all their pop-culture special encounters and other references happened. They never said "Oh hey I'm the guy from The Holy Grail" you simply either got the reference or you didn't, and you moved on.)



It's a special encounter, plain and simple. Like it or not? I like it. But that doesn't change the fact that it's a special encounter.



Those three, Cafe of Broken Dreams, Unwashed Villagers and the Bridgekeeper were the only three super-common encounters and I'll agree that I wish they weren't. Something tells me (and this is just a guess) that they were broken. Meaning, I think most special encounters were only meant to happen once and then be toggled "off". The thing about the Unwashed Villagers though, is that this was the Interplay/B.I. team showing their appreciation for their forum/internet fans and including a pretty random moment from the old boards in their game. I thought it was quite brilliant, actually.

I wouldn't have had a problem with the Bridge encounter if the guy didn't walk away complaining about being in a video game. That's my problem with the special encounters, not the fact that they're related to pop culture, but that they involve individuals saying things that don't belong in the context of the setting.





I'd hesitate to call it a special encounter since you stumble upon it while wandering around, and it's always in the same location even though it doesn't have a map marker. Or are you referring to the actual encounter where a UFO crashes?

Meh, I thought it was ironic and postmodern just like the game itself. To each his own though. I never set out to say they're either must-love or must-hate parts of the game, only that they were part of what helped establish the personality of the series.



I'm talking about this: http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2093/crashsite1ds2.png which is a special encounter.

Oh, my bad... I was thinking of the Fallout 3 UFOs.