Why do "good" people summon daedra and undead?

Post » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:49 am

In Morrowind and Oblivion the "good" people who worship the nine divines, hate daedra and necromancy, yet they summon undead or daedric creatures. Wouldn't that be considered evil magic? A bit hypocritical, no?
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BEl J
 
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Post » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:18 pm

Why so?
This is as evil as forcing a maffia guy to help you defend your brother from other maffia guys.

You just have to be careful so that you can really trust that maffia guy you forced to your service because he could turn against you...
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Taylrea Teodor
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:32 am

"Good" is a very relative term. A "good" Dunmer would approve of religious necromacy and worship Azura, Mephala, and Boethiah, for example.
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El Goose
 
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Post » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:54 am

And in the subject of Daedra and necromancy, they are not consider "evil" or "evil magic" right away.
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Enie van Bied
 
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Post » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:40 pm

And in the subject of Daedra and necromancy, they are not consider "evil" or "evil magic" right away.


I know that, but those who worship the Nine Divines would think so.
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Rachel Cafferty
 
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Post » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:39 pm

"Good" is a very relative term. A "good" Dunmer would approve of religious necromacy and worship Azura, Mephala, and Boethiah, for example.


The dunmer are crazy. I was thinking more about those who worship the Nine.
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Reven Lord
 
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Post » Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:46 pm

And in the subject of Daedra and necromancy, they are not consider "evil" or "evil magic" right away.

I know that, but those who worship the Nine Divines would think so.


No, not really. The Daedra are considered the "16 acceptable blasphemes." While their worship is not exactly encouraged, its not outlawed or automatically considered evil.
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KiiSsez jdgaf Benzler
 
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Post » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:35 pm

I think of it as Religion Vs Religion. Hell, in Daggerfall, each Eight Divine got their own following and some of them consider each other rivals.
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JaNnatul Naimah
 
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Post » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:27 pm

No, not really. The Daedra are considered the "16 acceptable blasphemes." While their worship is not exactly encouraged, its not outlawed or automatically considered evil.


I see.
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Tyrone Haywood
 
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Post » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:22 pm

For assorted, good people reasons.

The Temple - the Imperial Cult - had incorporated the Princes of Misrule into their gods' realms of judgment, by naming them "blasphemous." By naming them "acceptable," their priesthoods had the power to cordon worship, build temples of the Princes, and collect tributes from their worshipers. By allowing 16 more spirits into your pantheon, the people now have 16 more spirits to placate. Since religion is free, some simply moved their alters out of the public eye, and the Temple was never zealous enough to care. Just greedy enough to enjoy the bilking they were giving everyone else.

Why so?
This is as evil as forcing a mafia guy to help you defend your brother from other mafia guys.

You just have to be careful so that you can really trust that mafia guy you forced to your service because he could turn against you...

No. No, it isn't. Distinguish reality from fantasy, you'll find that there is evil, and the mafia is not... whatever delusion you follow.
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Nicholas C
 
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Post » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:16 pm

For assorted, good people reasons.

The Temple - the Imperial Cult - had incorporated the Princes of Misrule into their gods' realms of judgment, by naming them "blasphemous." By naming them "acceptable," their priesthoods had the power to cordon worship, build temples of the Princes, and collect tributes from their worshipers. By allowing 16 more spirits into your pantheon, the people now have 16 more spirits to placate. Since religion is free, some simply moved their alters out of the public eye, and the Temple was never zealous enough to care. Just greedy enough to enjoy the bilking they were giving everyone else.


No. No, it isn't. Distinguish reality from fantasy, you'll find that there is evil, and the mafia is not... whatever delusion you follow.

The point of a good RPG, like TES, is that there is no black/white good/bad.

Even Dagon is just the Leper king
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Eduardo Rosas
 
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Post » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:08 pm

I'll second that! Do I hear a third? Anyone?!
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Jerry Cox
 
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Post » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:02 pm

In Morrowind and Oblivion the "good" people who worship the nine divines, hate daedra and necromancy, yet they summon undead or daedric creatures. Wouldn't that be considered evil magic? A bit hypocritical, no?

That's inaccurate. In Morrowind, Daedra worship is sanctioned by the Temple as another form of Ancestor worship.

Daedra aren't synonymous with demons, and most people in Tamriel, save probably the Alessian-Order throwback fanatics know that.
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Breanna Van Dijk
 
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Post » Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:24 am

The point of a good RPG, like TES, is that there is no black/white good/bad.

I beg to differ, several fine RPG's have had a good-bad (or something similar) system.

Edit: And said systems did not detract from the games, but improved the experience.
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Jack Bryan
 
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Post » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:18 pm

I'll second that! Do I hear a third? Anyone?!


*Nods head*
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Elisha KIng
 
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Post » Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:02 pm

I beg to differ, several fine RPG's have had a good-bad (or something similar) system.

Edit: And said systems did not detract from the games, but improved the experience.

Key words: like TES. I think he means open-world games influenced by a Nietzschean worldview which doesn't dump a morality system on the player's head.
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Bereket Fekadu
 
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Post » Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:23 pm

In Morrowind and Oblivion the "good" people who worship the nine divines, hate daedra and necromancy, yet they summon undead or daedric creatures. Wouldn't that be considered evil magic? A bit hypocritical, no?



Why wouldn't they? What's inherently more evil about summoning a Dremora to kill someone than doing it with a sword or fireball?
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keri seymour
 
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Post » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:27 pm

Why wouldn't they? What's inherently more evil about summoning a Dremora to kill someone than doing it with a sword or fireball?


Especially since daedra aren't evil, just...different. The average ones are completely alien, and the princes are god-like, so how does one apply human morality to them?
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Lyndsey Bird
 
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Post » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:58 am

Especially since daedra aren't evil, just...different. The average ones are completely alien, and the princes are god-like, so how does one apply human morality to them?



Even ignoring that, whether you kill someone with magic, a sword or with a Daedra you're still killing them, right? It's like the difference between strangling your wife and hiring a hitman to do it. Does the moral affiliation of the hitman really matter? Aren't you serving either Destruction (Mehrunes Dagon) or Murder (Mephala) or both either way?
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Darren
 
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Post » Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:03 pm

Even ignoring that, whether you kill someone with magic, a sword or with a Daedra you're still killing them, right? It's like the difference between strangling your wife and hiring a hitman to do it. Does the moral affiliation of the hitman really matter? Aren't you serving either Destruction (Mehrunes Dagon) or Murder (Mephala) or both either way?

I would think so, as the Daedra are bound to do your bidding. Of course, especially with inexperienced summoners, there's a risk that the Daedra could break free of your control and turn on you. I can't imagine that Daedra enjoy being yanked from wherever they were, from whatever they were doing, and forced to serve the mortal that pulled them to Tamriel.
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Isabell Hoffmann
 
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Post » Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:10 pm

*Nods head*


I concur.
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lacy lake
 
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Post » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:08 pm

The book 'On Oblivion' says that the guy summoned Deadra to interview them and learn more about them, he isn't evil---just curious.
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Flutterby
 
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Post » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:22 pm

In Morrowind and Oblivion the "good" people who worship the nine divines, hate daedra and necromancy, yet they summon undead or daedric creatures. Wouldn't that be considered evil magic? A bit hypocritical, no?

There is no good or evil in TES, only shades of gray.

Magic is not inherently evil, its how you use it. Just like any other tool or weapon. Usually, its a matter of perspective. A nation using hordes of Daedra against another nation would be seen by their enemies as evil summoners of evil daedric spirits. Their allies would see them as intelligent and skilled summoners.

As for the Daedra, they aren't evil or good anyways. They do what is best for themselves or their lords, just like most mortals.

As for daedra turning on their summoners, I think I'd be pretty pissed off if I was relaxing in my domain and then got teleported to another dimension, forced to fight something, and then probably die, return to the soup of Oblivion for an indeterminate amount of time, then reform and maybe have to do it again. Even worse is if I get permanently forced into submission, as with the famous dremora Anhaedra (and all of his colorful dialogue).
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patricia kris
 
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