Attributes are not an RPG element, they are a combat mechanic. Spears as well. Having more or less stats and/or weapons isn't what makes a game more or less of a RPG.

Morrowind's journal wasn't all that great either. It also makes sense that NPCs are now capable of marking things on a map for you.

I can agree Morrowind had a great storyline, but I haven't done the main quest in Skyrim so can't really make a judgement there.

Nothing is forcing someone to play with numbers. Mass Effect had an auto option for those people terrified of numbers. They still didn't completely gut out all forms of customization. What happened is the definition of catering to a younger audience that can't be bothered to do anything that doesn't hold their hand through it.

Really, look at what they did.

Stats already did more than trickle down into 3 others. Rather than looking at Intelligence and say "Why do we need this if it only increases Magicka?" maybe they should have been looking at "How can we make this do more?". Spell damage being balanced around it's influence would've been a good start. Personality was viewed as mostly worthless because of how little was designed around it's use. The Imperials built a kingdom around this, why can't we recruit people to help us with it among other things? It's so easy to expand on that system, you can't do anything with Health/Magicka/Fatigue without hideously imbalancing things further.

Try and stop looking at it like they did. Look at what they could've done with a little more effort.

Spears have been the #1 weapon of mankind ever since man invented weapons all the way into the modern age until the point where it was feasible to equip every soldier with a firearm (and even then, they improvised spears by putting a bayonet on said firearms). Spears are dirt cheap, easy to make and easy to use. A world with swords but not spears is a joke, not a credible scenario.



How do you define that your character has more talent for some activities than for others?

Attributes aren't a combat mechanic, they are a way of telling the game what the talents and shortcomings of your character are. A character without such is not much of a character. And spears are part of a credible world.



It makes sense that NPCs are capable of marking things on a map for you ? Next thing you say is that it makes sense for them to explain quantum physics for you. Most of these people should be barely able to read, period, let alone understand the concept of maps and how to use them.

I honestly don't care about the attritubtes, most of them were redundant and did not effect much to begin with. There is, however, no excuse for the complete and utter destruction of the mage role. Not only did they remove most of the really nice spells (unlock, drains, real invisibility, weapon destruction, waterwalking, DOTs and poison related damage from spells, and from Morrowind to Oblivion already removed some awesome ones like levitate and recall) but they have taken out any aspect of roleplay within the mage class. All that is left for a mage is weak offensive spells. There is no more utility to being a mage.

You no longer feel powerful or mage like. You know longer feel like you are anything different than the 12 year old's character next door in heavy armor, with one handed and a fireball. Except you feel A LOT weaker. There is almost no incentive to wear robes for mages, seeing as heavy armor can be enchanted with the same bonuses most robes come with and beyond that there is no incentive. The destruction spells don't scale and you end up becoming the equivalent of a snow ball chucking bully by mid game. By then, warriors and assassins are one shotting just about everything and in better armor.

When confronted with a lock, what is my MAGE forced to do? Whip out a rusty lockpick! Why? Because Bethesda took out all the non-combat oriented spells! But hey, at least I can still cast magelight..... However, I'm sure that will be removed in the next TES game, so don't get too attached.

This game has turned into a hack and slash, sorry to say it but that's the facts. And it really makes me mad to see Bethesda alienating the core group of RPG fans that made Beth what they are today.

1. Um no...there are swords of every ancient culture...the same can't be said for spears. (But I do think we need spears)

2. How does that logic work? (this is referring to the assumption that most of them shouldn't be able to read.)

A character without such is whatever you decide they are, rather than what's on a spreadsheet. Nothing against games that include attributes really, but they've never significantly improved the RPG aspect of any game I've ever played. They've mostly only been at best a combat statistic, at worst a way of limiting dialogue options with stupid cliches involving genius wizards, idiot warriors, and charismatic rogues.

And there are books all over the place in TES, pretty sure the people know how to read. I think every single NPC house has some.

Um, yes. Spears have been around since the stone age, long before the first smith.




That logic works on the basis of the knowledge that widespread literacy is a fairly modern achievement. Let alone being able to read maps, which in ancient times would have been restricted to military leaders and scholars.

They have completely rebuilt the magic system though. Yeah it's not perfect, but it's got a lot of potential and imo is a far better mechanic than in any previous TES games. "Utilities" for mages are mostly in alchemy and enchanting now. You can enchant armor with waterbreathing or whatever it's called. You can enchant stuff and make potions that give you massive boosts in lock picking and stuff. You can make potions of invisibility, etc. Could do with some more utility spells and could do with some tweaking, hoorah for modders! And btw TES has always been predominately a hack and slash dungeon crawler.

And really, who cares about spears? They weren't really used much the middle ages except against cavalry. As if an adventurer would carry around a frickin Pike and take it into cramped dungeons for close quarters fighting.

And the map thing, it obvious that when villagers talk to you, YOU are the one updating your map after they give you a description of where the place is.

Guys... ffs. Go get some [censored] or something. This thread sounds like the ramblings of Mojo Jojo after he lost his pocket protector.

Emphatic "NO"

There is nothing "dumb" about Elder Scrolls. This topic makes me :facepalm:

Wrong. You can decide whatever you want - as long as you don't have an interface to tell the game about it, you just might not, as it is devoid of consequence. And that's what stats are - an interface.




If that is how you define your character, that's your fault, not the game's. But I think you are falling for the common trap to believe that being able to do whatever you want is a sign of quality - it is not. A good character is defined not just by what he can do but what he can't do as well. And a good world imposes limits. Wanting to be able to do whatever you want is wanting to play a God, not a character.

And really, Skyrim is so shock full of cliché that pointing at stupid clichés really doesn't fly as an argument in defense. All you have to do is look at the background image to be reminded just how cheesy Skyrim can be.



Having a book and being able to read it are two very different things. And to answer your question as to what use someone has of a book when they can't read it: Books can be seen as a sign of some degree of wealth - so having lots and lots of books can just as much be a means of demonstrating "See, I can afford them, I am filthy rich". And I am pretty sure NOT every NPC home in TES has some. Added on top, reading maps is still a different layer. The average person wouldn't even have use for it.

Huh? Sorry, that's ridiculous. Totally aside from the fact that spears were also used in knightly hand-to- hand duels on foot, they were the number one infantry weapon because they're dirt easy to use in formation. You're falling for the common misconception that medieval war was all about knights and archers, but that's wrong.
And not every spear is a pike, dude.



It is pretty clear that this is not the case since already in Oblivion, not only did you not get a description, but people explicitly said "Let ME mark it on YOUR map". If you marked it yourself based on their description, chances would be your mark is off by several hundred meters at best and a few kilometers at worst. But that's not the case.

My complaints (beside praises) has to do with functionality and just lacking several things(the modders are on it) .

The menu system is definitely a step back, I liked the Oblivion style functional menu with sorting capabilities by weight/price/damage. I can't do that anymore, I'm staring at an alphabetically sorted list, which is just painful and backward. It's like saying notepad is a better program for accounting than Excel.
I'm not even sure why would even the console crowd like this over the Obilivion style inventory system, it's not like making things easier and I just don't see the idea behind it going this route.

The other is the character leveling, with the extra 10 points to either stamina/health/magicka. It's "something" but I could have found a better armor or enchantment instead to raise any of those with 10 points easily, while the 1 perk point isn't as rewarding. Most people will end up leveling faster , while their character sort of stays behind, since everybody will be lockpicking/pulling a sword time to time/ restoring health via restore spell or enchanting. It's like after an experimental gameplay , I have to tell myself "don't touch that foundry /enchanter table/bow etc - because you may level unintentionally! As a mage, at one level around 20 , I really svcked, and I had to avoid or run away from certain fights, because my perks just weren't up, I didn't have enough magicka yet to cast a spell that would cause enough damage, so I only fought lower level creatures, just to get that destruction spell point, so I can get that better spell and perhaps a better robe, so it won't drain my magicka immediately and I don't have to run around with truckload of potions just to stay alive.
Because that's what happens, 75% of my weight are potions even though I don't really like the alchemy, perhaps if I was an archer/stealth kind of person who wants to make poisons, but I rather do enchanting instead, but for that I have to destroy so many items to learn the enchantments and my primary source of gold is selling that stuff.
Even now, at level 30, I have to pull a sword as the last line of defense, because I'm out of potions/ out of magicka and the enemy mages are sharpshooters with their ice and fire balls and I am not, but close up they go down even with my zero swordmanship and no stamina points ever spent.
My next character will be a swordfighter, because I can only imagine how much easier that can be, just by seeing it how easy to kill by bum-rushing everybody with my zero armor, zero perks for swords - mage.
My 2 cents.

A Charisma stat reflects a quality of the PC's personality and behavior. Their ability to command respect, awe, trust, or just to generally be liked (or feared).

A Perception stat reflects the PC's ability to draw in the details of their surroundings ~not just aiming a weapon. Perception could identify traps (in fact I'd prefer it if traps were invisible until noticed by the PC ~via stat check).

Strength is what can be carried, but could also apply to door & container bashing, and in a sophisticated RPG, even have an effect on intimidation tactics.

An Intelligence stat should not merely be for Mana/Magika. It reflects individual cleverness and understanding (and should have a marked and very significant effect on dialog and interaction options).
A Wisdom stat (not found in TES or Fallout) reflects a PC's understanding of when best to act (and what would happen because of it), rather that just what action to take; Also it commonly doubles as willpower, and mental resistance.

Luck should affect any skill activity or random chance. Agility should reflect the PC's body awareness and flexibility; can mean speed, but speed can mean other than agile.

Constitution/endurance usually means stamina, but also can mean general healthiness ~ a low constitution meaning a sickly individual. prone to ailments.

None of these are combat related (though most can apply to combat); ALL apply to the PC's 'character' and different values reflect different (personal) strengths and weaknesses ~Bedrock aspects of roleplaying no? (its the resources they have in their life; Its what they have to work with; what the player then has to work with).

Im guessing all 296 that voted no are still doing the main quest lines and blindly loving what is only temporarily.

In my opinion if you need quests to enjoy the game its not really a rpg now is it ?

Time to lock this.