Racials that kind of break Lore?

Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:06 am

I'm just curious. Why don't you?

Sixty years ago, the Chinese were regarded as technologically backwards politically chaotic agrarian weaklings. Now look at them. America used to be defined by its policy of non-intervention. Now look at us. Before the Franco-Prussian war, the stereotype was that Germans were poor workers, spent all their time relaxing, and couldn't fight worth [poopy]. Before WWI, France was a feared military power. Stereotypes, and the realities they're based on, change dramatically over time. Why do you think this wouldn't be true in Tamriel?

Well, first off as I am sure you have heard many times. This is not Earth. All those changes not only do not reflect a change in culture for that demographic but were due to rapid technological and economical developments alongside incredible cultural changes the likes of which is not happening in Tamriel. Secondly how they were viewed does not really affect the people. China also was a very advanced society at one point. In fact the most advanced in the world. They lost power and fell into dark and corrupt times in which they lost the power to defend themselves. They pulled out of that and are now getting back to where they believe they belong. At the top. What changed about them culturally as a people because of that? Not a whole lot. They are still very prideful in their country and still hardworkers, this is close grounds for stereotyping though.

With Tamriel in mind, Well the 3000+ years of time in which the Dunmer stayed the same culturally for the first part. Secondly 200 years is not even one generation for Mer. Lastly the events do not make sense for the changes to have occurred. If the Dunmer were on the run who is teaching them more magic skills? If anything in general they would be picking up swords more often or using makeshift weaponry and becoming survivalists. Once together they would probably start getting a society together that was training itself for war to reclaim their homeland. They do not have a single Combat skill. Redguards have been bad at magic in every game that I am aware of. Even in so far as it is a natural aversion for them to dislike magic of the 'Magnus' variety. They have been this way since they arrived on Tamriel. 200 years of events that were not that big for them would not change this imo. They did not experience a Red Year or anything of that impact that I am aware of. Why the dramatic change? I doubt the Bretons would have been training the Redguards as an entire people in magic. Altmer are less in tune with magic now as well. They no longer are balanced power-wise, by their weaknesses. Also their selective breeding processes alongside their pure merrish descent no longer seem to give them disease resistance. Why is that? I could go on and on about the poison resistances and such but I won't.

It is just game-play mechanics. There is little lore in the racials.

There are many holes in the whole 200 years of change thing, especially for changes this dramatic in some cases.
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Charleigh Anderson
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:31 am

I'm just curious. Why don't you?

Sixty years ago, the Chinese were regarded as technologically backwards politically chaotic agrarian weaklings. Now look at them. America used to be defined by its policy of non-intervention. Now look at us. Before the Franco-Prussian war, the stereotype was that Germans were poor workers, spent all their time relaxing, and couldn't fight worth [poopy]. Before WWI, France was a feared military power. Stereotypes, and the realities they're based on, change dramatically over time. Why do you think this wouldn't be true in Tamriel?


I agree, but open your umbrella, 'cause here comes the flood of "YOUR LOGIC DOES NOT WORK ON NIRN, SILLY EARTHMAN!" retorts.

Anyway, this is why we need subraces. Khajiit breeds, Argonian tribes, Great House and Velothi Dunmer, Colovians & Nibenese, Crowns & Forebears, etc.
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OnlyDumazzapplyhere
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:04 pm

There are many holes in the whole 200 years of change thing, especially for changes this dramatic in some cases.

Mostly I would like to see SOME lore justification for all these weird skill changes. Who knows? Maybe there'll be a thousand books in the game detailing recent history so it all makes perfect sense.
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Pumpkin
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:27 am

Mostly I would like to see SOME lore justification for all these weird skill changes. Who knows? Maybe there'll be a thousand books in the game detailing recent history so it all makes perfect sense.

That would be quite a feat but I would like to see it. Besides thousands og in game books sounds awesome lol. 8 1/2 more hours.
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Tiffany Castillo
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:20 pm

With Tamriel in mind, Well the 3000+ years of time in which the Dunmer stayed the same culturally for the first part. Secondly 200 years is not even one generation for Mer. Lastly the events do not make sense for the changes to have occurred. If the Dunmer were on the run who is teaching them more magic skills? If anything in general they would be picking up swords more often or using makeshift weaponry and becoming survivalists. Once together they would probably start getting a society together that was training itself for war to reclaim their homeland. They do not have a single Combat skill. Redguards have been bad at magic in every game that I am aware of. Even in so far as it is a natural aversion for them to dislike magic of the 'Magnus' variety. They have been this way since they arrived on Tamriel. 200 years of events that were not that big for them would not change this imo. They did not experience a Red Year or anything of that impact that I am aware of. Why the dramatic change? I doubt the Bretons would have been training the Redguards as an entire people in magic. Altmer are less in tune with magic now as well. They no longer are balanced power-wise, by their weaknesses. Also their selective breeding processes alongside their pure merrish descent no longer seem to give them disease resistance. Why is that? I could go on and on about the poison resistances and such but I won't.

It is just game-play mechanics. There is little lore in the racials.

There are many holes in the whole 200 years of change thing, especially for changes this dramatic in some cases.

The Empire Crumbled.
Hammerfell and High Rock teamed up to turn the Orcs into exiles once again
Valenwood was subjugated
All of a sudden, the Altmer are no longer on the decline, and things are starting to improve for them for the first time in thousands of years.
The Argonians have successfully invaded another nation for the first time... ever, AFAIK, and the Hist may no longer need to poison BM to keep enemies out.
The Khajiit have lost the Mane, and with it, the foundation of their society.
Morrowind got... well... you know...

Now, your reasoning against certain particular skill changes seems entirely reasonable - I totally get where you're coming from there. But don't you think there should have been some changes to represent the events of the fourth era?
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Ella Loapaga
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:04 am


- Imperials are no longer diplomats due to their reputation being destroyed (due to becoming puppets to Talmor) and due to losing their pride (again for the same reason), all which affects their persuasive powers (and from what I have seen, they are more brutish now than charismatic). Imperials also always had some respect for Battlemages and it is not to be surprised that more of them are following that path, especially since the Talmor showed how far magic users can get


I think they're still charmers and con-men, judging by their greater powers. I think their new stats suit them. They still feel like soldiers, but with restoration, it's as if Knights of the Nine had a big influence. If it was on development or in-universe, can't say. So now we have crusaders and paladins.

Dunmer are still war wizards and thieves, imo. They don't have combat buffs, but in a poor roundabout argument, they're balanced to choose any weapon the player wants. Kind of like how Bretons were often the go-to Paladins in Oblivion. Except here we now have a new sort of Black Knight.
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Ricky Meehan
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 7:57 pm

The Empire Crumbled.
Hammerfell and High Rock teamed up to turn the Orcs into exiles once again
Valenwood was subjugated
All of a sudden, the Altmer are no longer on the decline, and things are starting to improve for them for the first time in thousands of years.
The Argonians have successfully invaded another nation for the first time... ever, AFAIK, and the Hist may no longer need to poison BM to keep enemies out.
The Khajiit have lost the Mane, and with it, the foundation of their society.
Morrowind got... well... you know...

Now, your reasoning against certain particular skill changes seems entirely reasonable - I totally get where you're coming from there. But don't you think there should have been some changes to represent the events of the fourth era?

I appreciate what I think you are trying to do. Which is alleviate my irritation or get your point across. I also get your point but...

1) It has crumbled before...Even ruled by snakemen. Though technically Imperials did not exist till Morrowind...

2) Does not explain the Redguard aptitude for magic and we have no evidence they were teamed up longer than it took to evict the Orsimer.

3) Half of Valenwood was. Probably all of it was by the time of Skyrim,
Spoiler
though I think someone stated in Skyrim they still only had one half, was in a load screen or something a long while back during the hands on demos
, but how would that cause them to gain poison resistance?

4) Not sure what your point about the Altmer is supposed to refute. They are supposed to be better attuned to magic so they dish out more and recieve more damage from spells to reflect that.

5) Best reasoning for Argonian change yet, I like it somewhat, but I still find it faulty. Especially considering they were invading Morrowind after the big transformation or whatever they undertook and well, Morrowind is poisonous and full of swamps as well. Why would the Hist weaken their tools especially in a way that makes them worse at the job at hand?

6) Khajiit seem like they still fit their cultural and natural affinities for the most part though. Even with the Mane's disappearance.

7) Yes but if that is true then the Dunmer had a bigger atrocity enacted upon them than what already happened and what would be the equivalent of cutting down half the hist. The Ancestral Wrath power seems like their ancestors screaming in torment and rage if it is supposed to reflect that. Shudders. The main thing is I don't see how when they are a nation on the run they would not become better warriors. That seems like it would make more sense as cheap weaponry is more readily available and easier to gain some aptitude for than magic.

I totally agree there should be SOME skill change to reflect the events of the 4th Era and the loss of 3 skills and the additions of new ones to replace others, but not to the extent shown. If the Redguards just had destruction bonuses I would think that would make sense. But alteration too? That pretty much makes them Spellswords. A big change in their own lore. Stuff like that bothers me a bit. Now with this recent buzz about PC versions...(sigh) lets not go there...
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Anthony Rand
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 11:47 pm

We'll find out if this was adaquetly explained in just over 30 minutes, I suppose.
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sw1ss
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:31 am

We'll find out if this was adequately explained in just over 30 minutes, I suppose.

Lol maybe you will...I am still preloading at about 60% on a slow connection. FML. I am worried about all these PC concerns though. Not the place to discuss that though.

Hopefully it is explained.
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Kayla Bee
 
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Post » Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:37 pm

Lol maybe you will...I am still preloading at about 60% on a slow connection. FML.

:P

God bless high speed internet.
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Matthew Warren
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 5:34 am

:P

God bless high speed internet.

I am at my gf's place. Normally my connection is very good lol :brokencomputer:
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kennedy
 
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