Hey guys,

I remember before Skyrim was released that pretty much everyone was saying that Alduin and Akatosh are the same god. Well, from the context of Skyrim, it sounds more like Alduin isn't Akatosh, but rather more of an enemy of Akatosh.

Also, everyone kept saying that Lorkhan just doesn't exist anymore whatsoever. Well, in Sovngarde, I noticed that a lot of people were talking about Shor. (As well as previous mentions throughout the series) They kept mentioning that Shor flat-out forbade the heroes in Sovngarde to attack Alduin whatsoever. And the bridge guy (falling short on the name ATM) referred to Shor saying that he (the bridge guy) must deem them worthy in a test of skill before they're able to enter the Hall of Heroes. AND, there's a throne of Shor's in the hall as well. Did you guys mean that Lorkhan just doesn't exist on Nirn? Or did you mean he doesn't exist at all? Could I have a bit of clarification there? Kinda confused.

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Also, on a lesser note - Sovngarde: is it really part of Aetherius? If it was, why is it that we've never really heard much about it before? I mean, Skyrim was in Arena and the Nords have been in every game since (excluding Redguard of course ), you would have thought you would have heard SOMETHING about Sovngarde before this game haha. (Unless the idea of Sovngarde came during the 200 years between the Oblivion Crisis and the return of the Dragonborn)

And what's up with this White-Gold Concordat? I realize that the Empire was weakened after the destruction of the Septim bloodline, but could such a massive global force go down that easily? And with a new emperor (which I haven't read Infernal City or Lord of Kings all the way through yet, but it sounds like Titus Mede I was pretty good at his job), you'd think it would better reinforce the fact that the Empire is a global force. I also know that places like Valenwood, Morrowind, and Elsweyr seceded from the Empire, but once again - the Empire still controlled 5 provinces (until the Aldmeri take-over thing) and I assume thousands of troops in the Legion.

One more thing - who is the current Emperor? From the vows I took with the Legion, I assumed it was Titus Mede II but I was just curious.

We have heard about Sovngarde before; it was first mentioned as a Nordic belief in Bloodmoon.

And as for this mess with Alduin/Akatosh, and Alduin appearing as a relatively small and mundane creature... blagh. If the book "Alduin is Real (And he Ent Akatosh)" were the only suggestion that they're discreet, I'd pass it off as ignorant in-game people simple being mistaken. But "The Alduin/Akatosh Dichotomy" also leaves one with the impression that our previous understanding of the two was incorrect, and that there may be more to the idea that Alduin is a seperate entity than we thought.

blagh. I haven't even started the main quest yet, and maybe there's more information that sheds more light on the subject. We'll see.

As for the White-Gold Concordat, find and read "The Great War" (There's a copy in the castle of Whiterun). It explains the events leading up to that treaty in great and juicy detail. Excellent read.

Edit: And oh yeah, there were totally nords in Redguard. One of the first people you meet is a Nord. Awesome game, I wish more people played it.

Preliminarily favoring this interpretation:

"Don't forget that gods can be shaped by the mythopoeic forces of the mantlers-- so Tosh Raka could be an Akaviri avatar of Akatosh with a grudge against his mirror-brother in Cyrodiil.

Just like Akatosh-as-we-usually-know-him could time-scheme against his mirror-brother of the Nords, Alduin, to keep the present kalpa-- perhaps his favorite-- from being eaten.

Notice all the coulds." - MK

There is also the concept just posted in 'Boethiah's Summoning Day' that Alduin is Akatosh 'unbound.'

"The Alessians inaugurated the prominence of Akatosh. The Marukhati tried to exclusify it. Hjalti reinstated it. The Empire upheld it. The Dagonites ended it. The Dragon of Cyrodiil is bound in stone, and in time, The Dragon of the North will no longer be." - Chimere Graegyn

Hard to interpret that too many different ways, yet, admittedly, some of the dialogue has me a bit puzzled.

Yeah, that's the view I like to go with, but it's hard to ignore the insistence of those books that they're different entities.

I'm barely into the main quest at all but funnily enough this was the first book i found. and given how deep it goes into the explanation of what each race belive's i think its fair to say that alduin isn't a god merely an ancient dragon that made it through the great war and returns every so many thousands of years to try and take over skyrim\tamriel/nirn again getting people to worship them again as gods.

this is merely my opinion im no lore expert and my interpratation may be wrong but as the book states each race belive's in akatosh in one way or another. auri-el anui-el tosh raka etc etc yet only the nords belive in alduin not being a side of akatosh.

See, that's the problem. The (very) little I've seen about this whole "Alduin was the chief of dragons whom the nords used to worship in ages long past before some war where blah blah now he's coming back to rule humanity once more" garbage seems absolutely ridiculous and totally out of place. If that IS the deal with Alduin, then from what I've seen so far it contradicts a major portion of the lore about the gods and history.

Take this post lightly though; I'm assuredly making a fool of myself in my ignorance. I don't know enough yet to justify what I'm saying.

Skyrim ending spoilers:

I've not read this thread completely (for fear of spoilers) and not done most of the main quest, but...

Yes, Alduin and Akatosh are distinct personalities, capable of warring against each other. That's due to mythopoeia. They are however expressions of the same 'oversoul' of the dragon god of time. Dono if that jives with what is in Skyrim or not, but so far I've not seen anything that completely invalidates it.

Likewise, it's just that some of what I've seen doesn't jive the way I expected.

But enough, I'll quit my bellyaching and actually go play the game so I can base my statements on fact instead of impression :tongue:

It'd be pretty boring if everything worked out exactly like predicted :shrug:

This seems like the thread to bring this up in: When it's revealed that the PC is "Dragonborn" after killing that dragon near whiterun, a conversation somewhat like the following ensues amongst the guards.
Guard A: You're Dragonborn! Just like old Tiber Septim himself!
Guard B: something something I never heard of Tiber ever killing no dragons.
Guard A: That's because there weren't any dragons around back then, idiot. This is the first time they've come back in like... forever!

But... Nafaalilargus. There were definitely dragons present at the rise of the Septim Empire. Even if we hadn't seen Nafaalilargus with our own eyes, there's that mention of dragons flocking around the Imperial City in the pocketguide (iirc).
So... clearly this is just some ignorant Nord not knowing what he's talking about. Or at least, that's what I would assume if it weren't for all of these constant references to the "Dragon War" way back when that make it sound like the entirety of Nordic experience with dragons was some worship/servitude to them in pre-history that led to a war (in which Alduin was involved) that resulted in the extermination of the creatures. This is bugging me for god knows whatever reason, so I'm going to abandon the idea of simply playing further to clear this up for myself.
So does anyone know what the deal with this "Dragon War" is, and how does it fit with previous information about Alduin, pre-historical nordic religion, dragons, and ignorant nords?

Interesting theories - I was just a little confused on the Alduin = Akatosh? thing.

One thing wasn't answered yet - is Shor possibly still in existence or has he possibly returned? I don't think they'd be referring to his power or speaking to them, unless he was really still in existence. If he's still in existence or has returned, then what could that mean for Tamriel, or Nirn as a whole? I don't know if he'd try to take over - being that he's not really an Aedra OR a Daedra (Am I correct? Can't remember.), he's not really aligned with one particular aspect (Anu or Padomay). If he DOES try to take over, wow. That would be insane - Lorkhan is my favorite god to study about in the Elder Scrolls - he's just so mysterious.

And one thing I didn't think to ask last night:

You all kept saying that the Elder Scrolls just were collections of knowledge, with no actual power. What about the Elder Scroll you get in the main quest? It allows you to go back in time to the Dragon War if you're at the Throat of the World and see the heroes who first banished Alduin from Skyrim.

The Doom Drum is dead, not gone. Zombie gods.

And the awful fighting began again.

The Dawn.

I kinda interpreted Elder Scrolls mythology as kind of a more schizophrenic form of Hinduism in a way. Like Hinduism, different gods can have a myriad of aspects, but these aspects can be opposed to eachother (themselves I guess) and stuff, Alduin/Akatosh especially. Alduin comes off as especially Hindu-istic, not only is the term kalpa used in relation to him he is much like Shiva. In one aspect he is the creator and protector of man, and in another aspect he is the destroyer, part of a natural cycle of creation and destruction.