https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RN5BGueTNUc

See, Titus Mede I was a Colovian warlord responsible for purging the Imperial City from the corrupt politicians fighting for control after the death of Potentate Ocato. He took over the throne and kept the Empire from collapsing (which would have allowed the Thalmor, later on, to sweep in an take over the Imperial provinces).

Titus Mede II was in charge of all the things happening in Morrowind, Black Marsh, and besides that, the Thalmor uprising over in Valenwood and the Elsweyr Confederacy. He had no idea the Aldmeri Dominion were up to such bold plans, until it was too late. The only "incompetence" he had was the lack of attempting to act prematurely.

Lord Naarifin was a military commander. He was the war criminal responsible for the atrocities over in the Imperial City.
It's like the Russians using a German Field Marshal as a bargaining chip against the Nazis.
That's a bad example, but you get the point.

You have a point about the Mer, though, but pushing onward would have probably strained to Empire's resources and caused a complete collapse.

See I don't see why it would have strained their resources any more than the Dominions. The Empire itself had more manpower and more resources than the Dominion had by a long shot. Like many a raga, I'm of the opinion had the Empire pushed they could have at least contained the Thalmor to the Isles and rebuilt. Theres a great deal within the Dominion's borders who don't agree with the Thalmor's policies.

And to think I actually believed the fights would of been marginally closer.

Mede II didn't take over until three years before the war. Mede I is the one that failed to act. Valenwood had fallen during umbriel's time, Khajiit joined the altmer around 4e100 leaving 60 years before the war. High Rock vs Orsinium happened under his rule too. The plans of the thalmor have been pretty widely known for a long time...they were the same plans as when the aldmeri dominion was first formed. Kill all the men.

The thalmor approved wholeheartedly of what Naarifin was doing. Military leaders are quite valuable. Tactical and strategical know how aren't the easiest thing to teach. Coming up with a plan is great. Being able to adapt your plan once battle starts is a skill not so easily learned.

And the empire shouldn't have pressed after the battle. They should have done what they're doing now, minus the concordat. Build their strength up and prepare for an attack.

The saddest part of the quest chain on the Stormcloak side was the attack on Solitude. The way whats-her-name stood up and for her Empire, invoking Talos... it really drove home the bitter point of the "civil" part of the war. The dialogue between Galmar, Ulfric, and Tullius sums up my opinions on the matter, best.

You could at least try not to split up my post into a million different pieces next time? I know you're trying to combat each point I put across, but it gets messy for me when I reply.

In any case, let's start up front then.


Skyrim was a primitive, dangerous land, and Septim saw it fit that the lands of Tamriel should be unified to make a more powerful, prosperous land.

When I was talking about the Legion, I was talking about Legion BEFORE the Oblivion Crisis. The Fighter's Guild/Companion are a private entity that accept payment from citizens to do certain contracts. The Legion is supported by the tax money collected from the citizens. Like you said, give it time and the Legion can recover from the devastation it was dealt during the Great War.
When I was talking about Markarth, it was an example of how the Legion kept them off the land and under control. When Ulfric came in to reclaim it, despite the biased documentation of the event, he is still a war criminal.



Yes, you're right. But they're not comfortable with the Thalmor just coming in and taking over. I can assure you the races of men would never let this happen, especially when the Thalmor impose such hefty rules into their everyday lives.


He's an agent precisely because he is an asset. Remember, he's still going off about the how the Empire are the bad guys and puppets to the Thalmor. This is both incorrect and shallow.


I was judging Ulfric off his actions.
He does know what he's doing, but he doesn't really know why. I mean, sure he sees Talos as a catalyst, but to instigate a civil war? Are you freaking kidding me?
You cannot deny he's not in it for the power. He sees himself fit of the throne, and you can see that if he wins the war, he will become High King. The man is a racist war criminal that is also not worthy of being called honorable, after his stunt with Torygg. The fact that the Stormcloaks see him as the savior is enough for me to side with the Empire.



That's irrelevant. The Legion was in no shape or form to combat the Thalmor, BEFORE or AFTER the surprise attack. They were not prepared to handle such a merciless assault.

I don't think you realize the logistics of preparing an official army for defense against a superpower. You know how many drafts are going to go out? How many civilians are going to be conscripted? Skyrim will look more like an authoritarian state rather than a kindgom. The Stormcloaks do not have the manpower nor do they have what it takes to fight off the Aldmeri Dominion. If they win, Skyrim is doomed.

I know. It was also pretty awkward when

They are. Look at some of the other videos.
These videos also do not include Battlemages, which are part of the official army.



Yes, you are right. See, I'm not that knowledgeable about the Emperor's timelines because there's so little info over them.

This does not refute what I said, however.
If I remember correctly, Ocato was the only powerful person paying attention to the Thalmor's plans. After Mede I swept the rug in the Imperial City, any person with any further knowledge was kicked out. I think the Emperors had too much on their hands to really pay attention to what was really happening over in Valenwood and Elsweyr.

This Naarifin thing is just plain silly. I don't think the Thalmor would have really done anything had they been given the option to save the commander.
You also have to keep in mind the Aldmeri Domion still had an army over in Hammerfell, and they could have used it to sweep over the broken Imperial Legion. They would not have waited for the Empire to build up their strength while they fighting off guerrillas over in Hammerfell.

Lets see, 1/3 of a legion in hammerfall. They drive out the thalmor

1.5 legions in cyrodiil. No match for the force in hammerfall.

What?

And where's this guerilla warfare thing coming from?

I almost wish I'd done this before the main quest, just to see that. Anybody know if Ulfric and/or Galmar receive likewise, if you gun after the Stormcloaks?

I don't... Okay.
There's a bit more to it than that.

The Legions over in Cyrodiil had just waged a brutal battle with the Thalmor army in the Imperial City.
They destroyed it completely in an awesome tactical maneuver, but were left in shambles.

In Hammerfell, the defunct Legionnaires stopped them, but did not drive them out. Alik'r warriors waged brutal guerrilla warfare on the Thalmor army, while they are fighting the militia and Legionnaires conventionally.
Any competent commander would have seen this as a bad option to progress (but after the peace treaty, they remained in the region for 5 more years, so it shows you their determination). So, assuming the Empire would not have signed the peace treaty, what would the commander do? Continue the draining war in Hammerfell (which was a secondary goal) or go over into Cyrodiil and siege the Imperial City again to finalize the decapitation of the Empire?

Sounds like your assuming that the battered Altmer forces in Hammerfell would just be able to waltz over to Cyrodiil and do as they please. Cut off from any reinforcments and supplies, that force in Hammerfell would be eventually doomed without further support. In this case, the Dominion would still be on the loosing side.

I'm assuming that because they were able to fight in Hammerfell for five years. The force must have been large enough to occupy all that land in southern Hammerfell AND wage open war.

In a tactical sense, the Legions cutting off the land trade routes to Hammerfell from Valenwood is a sound idea. BUT they cannot cut off water trade routes, unless they occupy the ports, which would require a sufficient force to take over (which the Legion was desperately deprived off). The Imperial Navy in the Abecean Sea was pretty much gone or had to be pulled out to defend the Imperial City. There was no one to oppose the Dominion Navy, aside from privateers and pirates.

We have no evidence to support that the Imperial navy was non existent in Hammerfell. The Great War doesn't speak about naval clashs outside the Nibian and you can be certain the Dominion didn't go uncontested on the sea. The Great War states the land was given to the Thalmor, but never states it was effectively occupied and makes it clear the fighting was so intense it devastated southern Hammerfell. The Altmer force hung in there, but a guerrilla warfare is one that is long, tedious and very constantly. I doubt myself they sought open conflict with the Dominion and instead resorted to hit and run/sabotage and just general dissent to weaken their hold. The Dominion itself was so tied up in Hammerfell it was unable to offer assistance to their army in Cyrodiil, which to me imply they had more than a handful holding on to what they had.

I made the point in another thread, the French held Vietnam for the better part 96 years, over which they had time to fortify their positions and increase their presence (and were still driven out). The Dominion had no such luck, and were contested every single inch of the way. The Dominion holding on for five years is barely enough to state their superiority, as much as them barely hanging on to their initial gains. The Great War relied on their initial shock and awe advances, but when the war bogged down it turned on them.

You're absolutely right about the Thalmor's strength and tactics.

You're wrong about there being no mention about naval clashes.
The sea had just as much conflict as land. The Niben Bay and Lake Rumare saw intense naval combat as previously mentioned. In Oblivion, was there mention or even a hint that the Imperial Navy was in port? Of course not. They had to pull the Navy from other provinces and from the sea to fight them off in Cyrodiil's waterways, since they were substantially more important that the provinces.
I think that in this case, the Aldmeri Dominion concentrated a lot more on keeping the Imperial navy off their backs and securing the ports in Hammerfell for trade routes.
I'm assuming this, of course, since there's no verifiable evidence.

However, when it comes to the war in Hammerfell, they had the persistence and endurance to resist said guerrilla attacks. You say this can be related to the French in Vietnam, yeah? Well, you might be right. They lost anyway, and were forced to sign the peace treaty after those 5 years. I was speaking hypothetically here, to where the Empire rejects the peace treaty. Would the Thalmor commanders try to hold down the fort in Hammerfell or go to Cyrodiil to destroy the Empire?

You have to recall the Thalmor are persistent sons of [censored]es. They do not falter at the fact another entire Thalmor army was destroyed there. If it's for wiping out men, it's worth it.

I would really like to see the sources mentioning the hammerfall fighting more in depth. I haven't seen anything stating they engaged in guerilla warfare.

Yeah, it's really vague. There's no definite source aside from what you've already seeing, directly stating the presence of guerrilla warfare.

The Alik'r desert is a very harsh place. Most of its inhabitant are desert nomads, as a cultural people. The warriors that originate from that area (the guys with the turbans in Skyrim), they're the guys who concentrate on the guerrilla warfare.

http://www.imperial-library.info/content/daggerfall-alikr

The mention that the harassing attacks the Alik'r to the retreating Thalmor army, also supports this claim. They cannot be conventional battles, for the warriors would be at a disadvantage; they're hit and run tactics. Sabotage. Hide and seek.
If that's not guerrilla warfare, I don't know what is.

Note, I said outside the Nibian in reference to the naval clashes that happened in the bay and along the river. The end result however was the Dominion suing for peace to the Empire, not the Empire asking for peace. Hypothetically, had the Empire opted for further war, I don't think the Thalmor force could have made it to Cyrodiil intact. Outnumbered in a hostile land that has no want for them there period doesn't bold well for them. Even if they tried to make a break for Cyrodiil theres no logical way they would have been able to sustain a siege of the Imperial City, and to completely ignore the psychological effects of having their main army completely destroyed and the likelyhood of facing a similar fate isn't realistic. Like it or not, their common foot soldiers likely don't look at death as a minor inconvenience.

Edit: The Great War mentions the Raga having conventional armies, a Forbear Army broke the Siege of Crown city which magically reconciled their differences (which is utter BS in my opinion).

Wait, really?

I thought the Emperor negotiated a peace with the Thalmor. I always assumed the Thalmor would have kept the war going.
What I also don't understand is why you assume the army would have so little morale? Thalmor are masters of information, and they could have very well kept the information hidden from their armies to keep morale at a steady pace. It's probably why the army in Hammerfell was so determined; because they believed the other army had succeeded so majestically initially and encountered no problems. You also have to take into consideration the indoctrination the Altmer of Alinor have went through by the Thalmor to make them believe men were inferior and had to be extinguished.
They could have also created lies again if they had been able to reposition the army so it could lay siege to the Imperial city.

Something we both forgot to mention is the fact Hammerfell had been the primary objective of the Thalmor, in the beginning. This meant the main force of the Thalmor army was over in Hammerfell, while the diversionary force had conquered the Imperial City. This means they could have been more than capable of having enough men to march over to the Imperial City and laying said siege.

This silly conversation about the Imperial Navy and the war in Hammerfell is irrelevant in the grand scale of things, since we're running on assumptions and logical theories here, without any concrete evidence. Meh, I guess I have nothing more to say on that end...

I also don't think the reconciliation of the two Hammerfell factions is that big of a deal. I mean, join forces/help each other out against a common enemy, and find the differences aren't all that big, right? Heh.

I wish Bethesda had fleshed out the war some more...

The main army did go to hammerfall at first, but they went to cyrodiil after the diversionary strikes great success and attempted to end mankind once and for all. That main army was then destroyed. Also take into note, that the force that captured the imperial city and was later destroyed was made up of all available thalmor forces. Which means only the hammerfall one was left afterwards.

No at all.

Firstly, its undoubtedly temporary. The two groups have periodically experienced periods of unity interspersed among longer periods of disunity. As soon as Hammerfell's leaders determine the Thalmor as no longer a threat, the leaders will find the motivation and advantages to drawing lines between each other.

Secondly, having the Forebears relieve a Crown city is a big thing. Its no wonder that the two factions found the patience and reason to "magically reconcile" their differences. I mean, even when the Camoran Usurper was [censored] the coastal cities of the Forebears, the Crowns turned up their nose. And when the Nords were beating the willies out of the Crowns, the Forebears whistled loudly over their desperate pleas for help. Its not at all a trivial thing when a Forebear army comes to the aid of the Crowns.

No one seems to keep in mind the huge change added into the equation of all this; you.

You are Dragonborn, POSSIBLY a Shezarrine itself, but either which way you take on a position that drastically changes the landscape of the battlefield.

I mean, we see how everyone reacts to dragons. And sure, some people can beat them. But the Dragonborn defeats ALDUIN. He's a bad motherfing dude.

Considering the Mede Dynasty are not Dragonborn themselves, and considering the whole deal with that in the game, whether you side with the stormcloaks or the empire your character is the prime choice to take on the mantle of emperor.

Elder Scrolls: Skyrim will be (eventually through DLC, which I think will be more lore important than past DLC in regards to their respected games) about the starting of the 4th empire, by your character. Whether we actually play that or not who knows.

Obviously that's all speculation at the end there lol, but I think that is where things will head with this. Stormcloak or Empire, the point is to UNIFY Skyrim, whether it be with the empire or the start of its own.