Because the 'almosts' are nearly equivocating. Your almost is passive. It was only a potential, it was completely and utterly averted, nothing bad happened. My almost is active. Damage was done on a massive scale and it's only after great damage has been done at the very last moment when there is about to be no hope at all that the world is saved.

The world did not almost end during the Cuban Misslile Crisis, there was just strong potential for it if things had gone badly. The world did almost end inthe Oblivion Crisis, things did go badly and only barely managed to be fixed.

If you seriously think there is any comparison to be made here I can do nothing for you, you're caught up in an accident of words.

Actually, you might want to go watch that "Fog of War", because you seem to be just as caught up in the notion that the "because it didn't happen, it wasn't really almost the end of the world" mentality I was just talking about.

The subs were within about 15 minutes of opening fire and starting World War III before the Russians called them off.

Robert S. McNamara on the verge of tears because humanity nearly went the way of the dodo on his watch (nevermind the whole admission of war crimes bit) is -really- weird. Just saying.

if WWIII had actually started and then nearly come to its own end you might have a point, but it didn't, so you don't.

That both almost ended the world is again, an accident of terms, one that you're caught up in. You're equivocating, which thus makes you wrong.

One is only the possibility of destruction taking place, it's an imaginitive almost, where we can imagine all the bad that would have happened. The other is a literal almost, where the world was in the process of being destroyed but wasn't.

That's the difference. In Tamriel the process of destruction had started, and 'almost' neared completion. In Cuba the process 'almost' started, but didn't actually, nothing happened.

I don't underestimate the Cuban Crisis, it was almost bad for us, very bad. However I'm smart enough to know that it doesn't relate to something that actually was very bad. It's potentiality versus actuality, learn the difference and then come back.

I tried to edit my previous post but can't from this device, sorry for the double.

Perhaps this example will illustrate my point, lets say you're operating a chainsaw. In one instance you slip while cutting, almost hitting your hand with a blow that had it connected would have surely severed your hand completely. In another instance you slip while cutting and actually cut your hand 3/4ths the way through, almost severing it. In both cases it can be said that you almost cut your hand off, but the two cases are clearly not comparable, only the second did damage to your hand.

Also similarly chances are one may not remember the first instance for very long, but they would the second (and there would also be visible signs).

This thread sure took one philosophic turn :I

...I love posting stuff on the Lore site. My topics always seem to start things like this.

Oh and about the newbie-Lore-master-not-having-a-good-grasp-of-the-lore-coming-in-and-out-of-the-lore-forum-like-rockets thing. I assume that was directed at me.

I have been here awhile and have a pretty decent grasp of the Lore. Better than most, less than many that have been here for years sure, I'll freely admit that much. What I do not have in spades is a fantastic grasp of theoretical lore created by fans of the game. I respect their conclusions but how am I supposed to take them seriously enough that I remember it most times? Lady Nerevar at least has fairly solid theories that have a lot of basis in lore in the game. Enough to be fairly credible. I seemed to have forgotten her theory even though I read it. Hence the Jyggalag thing. I still would expect mention of it though. Especially when Sheogorath is IN the game. He could have dropped a few lines, of course in a way tinted with madness but still something would be better than nothing.

I am pretty sure I am over reacting as well but meh..

I also seem to have a different opinion of what breaks lore. To me, despite gameplay limitations, not being able to summon more than Atronachs and Dremora is something mildly game breaking and highly controversial as it DOES detract from the gameplay as well as the Lore. Drastically reducing the number of summonable Daedra like they did is inexcusable imo. They should have been a priority. They had the resources from previous games. They simply decided to put their time into other things thinking it was not important enough. I am aware of that. However they put that time into things that most fans I have talked to do not care anything about and from posts in these forums, no one even mentions them and the people who do mention them critique them harshly because they were probably the target audience those gimmicks were made for. Maybe my topic title should have been "Does Bethesda prioritize its Lore appropriately alongside other mechanics when Developing their games?" Seems like they wasted a lot of time on things that would have hardly been missed and could have led to much better things like a more polished game and more monster and critter Diversity.

They should have made more than just a few Daedra. Or if the whole firewall because of the Oblivion crisis is true (it is not, at least in the way someone earlier was hinting at, the only thing that changed because of that gates cannot be opened up that pour Daedra from Oblivion into Nirn, also Daedra cannot come to Nirn of their own volition, multiple accounts of Daedra being summoned post Oblivion crisis, It happened in the Novels.) summoning a Dremora is summoning a Daedra that refutes the idea that Atronachs are summonable because they are a different type of Daedra somehow that are excused from said firewall. Conclusion, we can summon anything from the realms of Oblivion.

I'm really just disappointed that Shor has been reduced to a minced oath.

As for the lack of OBC references, I like to imagine that relatively few gates opened in Skyrim due to the Dawnies either freezing to death or being eaten by the Snow Whales.

Shor got shafted. Big time. I have seen nothing on him in 250 hours casual cursing from NPC's aside. Oh and a fort named after him...

I actually feel like just one Oblivion gate would have been enough of a reference to the widespread influence of the Oblivion Crisis. Also their are accounts of crystal-like-law getting destroyed in some new books during the oblivion crisis.

What I really wanted to see was some evidence of the Nords having dealt with the Oblivion Crisis. We heard about Black Marsh, Morrowind, and Summerset Isles and how they were affected. Idk if we heard about any other places but I would expect the setting of the game to have some account of what transpired in Skyrim at the very least during the Oblivion Crisis. Especially since we get new accounts of Summerset Isle in the game.

Just seems incredibly odd.

How often do we hear about the fallout of the 1906 San Francisco Earthquake? The one whose aftermath destroyed nearly half the city. That was 100 years ago. I've lived in San Francisco, there isn't a trace of it anywhere outside of a few plaques. Now extrapolate that to 200 years ago. Yes the Crisis threatened the entire Kingdom, yes it was terrible. What are you going to do? You're going to carry on. You are going to rebuild. Yes it's regrettable that 'historians' haven't taken a continent-wide view of the crisis and published it ingame, but from what I understand, scholarship in the Empire (especially magical, but also mundane) became highly insular post-crisis, never mind the Dominion closing it's borders. From the implications I got, the Empire barely even knew Crystal-Like-Law was destroyed until 'Rising Threat' was published. Well, the Penitus-Oculatus might've known, but the Imperial Public, the Scholars, the Historians didn't. How are you going to get the Tamriel-wide view if you can't see all the parts?

200 years may be two-thirds of a lifetime for an average Elf, but for a human, that's 6 generations. That's ancient history.

First off. Have you been to Winterhold? Pretty much exactly what you describe about San Francisco happened there. They talk about it and reference it multiple times. The event was roughly 100 years ago. They did not rebuild...

Secondly...

Talking about what happened to our recent generations is completely irrelevant to the time period in which TES is emulating in some respects. The Medieval/Renaissance times. We do not talk about many of these things (War of 1812, Vietnam, San Fransisco Earthquake) because we have so much to talk about in our day and age. So much has happened in the last 100 years and so much drastic change has occurred in our societies that nothing can even keep out attention for long. We want to discuss things like...the in-game lore, or lack there of, of a video game franchise that was started a little less than 20 years ago or so and has just had a new game released. Or any number of the plethora of topics we have at our disposal because of how easy it is to access information and education in this day and age. Back then, anything big was talked about for ages.

TES is a different world. If we are to superimpose some of our ideology from the time period it is reflecting. The average guy in TES does not know magic it would seem. So their lives are similar to those of people in the middle ages, albeit slightly better and there is more literacy. All that people talked about back then was what little history from the past that they heard the tidbits of. So yeah. These events are something they WOULD be talking about. Especially historians. Skyrim is not completely illiterate. They would have histories talking about all these events, Using the common time period with our technologies and way of living is a very big mistake when you compatre these things,

Nothing excuses the lack of books in these subjects either. TES is more advanced than medieval society because of magic. There is a much better quality of life for most people in game. They all seem to have books in their houses and writing utensils are everywhere. There are dedicated scholars studying Dwemer and Ancient Nordic ruins throughout the province. They would have historians taking the events of the 4th Era into account at the very least and making books about them. If there is a Dunmer writing about how he is in Skyrim and his people are going to take over and it is still circulating after what is likely a hundred years+ after he wrote it, then I see no reason there would not be books written on any of these things. Especially personal history like how the Oblivion Crisis affected Skyrim. Or Umbriel and what happened. What else is the Bard's College for? They of all factions in Skyrim should have some songs or books about what happened during the interlude between Oblivion and Skyrim.

If BGS wants to skip 200 years of TES history they should at least give us a more detailed account of what happened.

Basically what it comes down to is this is a different game. We want to look at tes games as sequels, but they're kinda not. Different settings and culture mean different viewpoints entirely... and in tes that means alot. Lore in morrowind simply doesn't apply in skyrim, because the nords have different beliefs of what the lore is.

I know that's kind of a cop out, but that's just the way it is. Personally that's why it doesn't bother me that alduin is suddenly "firstborn". That's thru the eyes of these imperialized nords.

So now we've gone from comparing an apocalyptic invasion by an otherworldy god to a human war, to comparing it to an earthquake? I'll go back to my previous reasoning, was Cthulu involved in this earthquake, no? then the anology svcks.

I think I refuted his point pretty well already. The point is that we have never been invaded as an entire species before with the goal of our enemy unknown, but assumed to be to wipe us out or enslave us. Pretty much the only way we could relate is if we ourselves were invaded by aliens that showed up all over the world and after impacting every major society in some way they get stopped just as their big ole mother ship was swing about its planet destroying laser.

Now if we experience that and stop talking about it in 200 years I would be shocked!!

As to why they don't mention Umbriel? They kind of do but it is brushed upon too lightly imo. But my guess is they just did not want to spoil the novels because of a contract with Keyes or something, creative license and all that :ahhh: .

What should have happened? There should have been rallying cries for the Empire saying it was a Mede who stopped the Floating City from turning everyone into a zombie. It was the Empire that stopped the Oblivion Crisis. And it was the Medes who held against the Aldmeri Dominion.

The the Stormcloaks could have said the Medes have lost their honor. Martin was a Septim like Talos. The new empire does not have what it takes to keep the Dominion at bay and betrayed their greatest Hero and God. If Ulfric was not such a %$#%%# I would probably join the Stormcloaks. As it is. I still have not chosen lol. Looking at the empire with the thought that they will reinstate Talos after gathering their strength.

Okay, so we're just restricting ourselves to paradigm-shifting events. Yes they've got a bit more staying power in our mind. Does the Oblivion Crisis qualify? Daedra don't roam the streets these days. From Joe-Nord's perspective, little has changed. Sure, new emperor and new dynasty, mages are feared more, and we're no longer friends with the elves (except the dark elves), but Joe-Nord could've told you we weren't friends to begin with. That doesn't sound like a severe paradigm shift that affects everyone's way of life like, perhaps, the Heartland Men no longer slaves to the elves and establishing an Empire of Man. Maybe if he's from Winterhold, he moved because his home fell into the sea, but that's not directly from the Oblivion Crisis. I know that argument sounds suspiciously close to "there is no evidence because it didn't leave enough of an impact on their lives and we know this because there isn't any evidence," but think about it. Your entire nation becoming refugees trumps some military engagements that threatened to enslave you all, but didn't. Sure it was terrifying and damaging like an earthquake, but life moved on because the Crisis doesn't impact your kid's lives and so they aren't going to really talk about it as much and that will then mean that their kids will talk about it less than they did and so on and so on until it becomes pretty much irrelevant in the face of other things that happened at the beginning of the 4th era.

I still have no idea what the debate in this thread is about. There are plenty of Oblivion references in Skyrim. Its like we're arguing over the absence of something that isn't absent. Frankly, there are better things to argue about.

The same could be said of 98% of the discussion on the internet. People are arguing about it because they enjoy arguing about it, or have a bad arguing habit.

I deny that, and intend to argue with you about it. Have at you! :toughninja:

I Hate How Everyone calls Alduin a " Mannimarco moment" Because Its not! One Of The Grey Beards say's He wasant suprised that you didint absorb Alduins soul Since He Is MORE Then A dragon, And Alduins States he is the "First Born Of akatosh" Stateing that he indeed Has a connection to the God Of Time! Anyways I LOVED Skyrim's Lore And Book. My Fav was the one When this Boy Summons a dremora To Make his mom A Magic Dress...Instead He Gets His Heart ripped out and His Soul Stolen By A Black Soul Gem!

Bethesda seems to take political lore seriously, but seems to desire to avoid mythic lore, I feel. Particularly for religion. My biggest disappointment with Skyrim is 90% of Nords worship the Nine Divines.

Dude. It did impact Skyrim...The Civil war is tied to the Great War, which was caused by the Thalmor who took power by claiming they saved the Summerset Isles from the Daedra in the Oblivion Crisis, even though it was Martin. Oblivion gates opened everywhere. Not everyone is a Joe-Nord. Not even close. It should not be on everyone's lips but there should be a few who mention how Skyrim was affected by the Oblivion crisis at the very least. Especially Mer and historians. There are Dunmer who scream out "Nerevar" in battle and often, who as far as we know has not been seen in 200+ years! No one cries out for the Champion of Cyrodiil do they? or Martin Septim? Just Talos...that is it. It is like that part of history was erased from the Nords and Imperials both. I would like to know why. Forgetfulness or whatever Bethesda's reason is. Personally I think they just did not want to bother with it.

@Fiore, It is not that there is a lack of talk about the Oblivion crisis in general. It is the lack of what happened to Skyrim during the Oblivion crisis. Every province was hit. I can understand not telling us what happened to some of the other provinces, even though they did, but I cannot understand why we would not be given information about what happened to the place the game is now set in, during the previous installment. Does not make sense. It is a valid argument.

No, it's a Mannimarco moment. Manny was described as a god, and often, but was no more than a slightly stronger necromancer, and showed up as an ordinary Altmer.

Alduin is outright described as NOT being a god (because calling him an aspect of Akatosh would make the poor newbie's heads hurt) and is easier to defeat than an Elder Dragon, and in fact looks just like a dragon, only black and pointy.

When?

I've never heard a dragon call Akatosh a god, either. A "god" is a mannish concept, when it comes to et'ada.

I'm not talking about dragons calling Alduin anything, I'm talking about the Blades, the Greybeards, and pretty much every other human (ie everyone) who's convinced that Alduin isn't Akatosh, just a really mean dragon.

It's those reasons I don't like Skyrim as much.