all i would say here is what i already have..
apples and oranges.

Then you clearly missed the point.

Nutriotnists can't tell you anything about the psychological effect of that. Sure, they can tell you about the physological effect of reduced nutrients, but not the effect of consistently small servings, nor can they tell you how much perosnal space a person really needs.

Simply because people would rather eat bland food than nothing at all doesnt mean the experiment is valueless. What is the physological effect of it?

And if you'd played fallout 2 you'd know................... There were supposed to be 100 spare of that particular part in vault 13 (but in error received an extra GECK)
Astronauts are hardly normal people. They're incredibly inteligent people at a high state of fitness, they'd hardly represent the average of the folks in the enclave.


Were you locked in a room with nothing at all - copletely bland walls, etc. Let me guess, you could go outside and find stuff to do.



How do you know that it would be more useful? That's soemthing that would need to be tested.


The Enclave =/= Military.

The Enclave has a Military, but it is not the Military - In the same sense that the US has a military, but isnt one.


Probably had huge hydroponic bays... They were sitting on a huge resource of salt water and near limitless Electricity, so fresh water for plant growing is plentyful for them - Something that the spaceship won't have.


Although that wasn't specificly mentioned in FO2 that I can think of, it was the plan for Van Buren.


QFT.

i dont think i did.

youre saying that neither the enclave or alien experiments made sense, so i should have issues either with both, or neither..
i dont agree with that because i dont feel they are the same at all.

and its not that i see the vaults themselves as unuseful for experiment facilities.. the experiments that were done are useless.
again, an extruder doesnt give clothes to mormons.. what is supposed to be gained in that scenario? it doesnt even matter if we know or dont know what theyre trying to learn. given that all of the inhabitants were mormons and the people on the enclave ship, or repopulating the earth arent, so that particular experiment is flawed in its foundation. Simply stating that the enclave might have had their reasons or that they are social experiments doesnt negate the need for scientific theory to be observed in order for the experiments to have any validity..... and theres something like that that partains to all of the vault experiments.. even the control vaults.. being able to even open them prior to their pre-determined experiment end time allows for the possibility of contamination of the control, effectively making them useless as controls. controls by definition do not have variables. giving the overseer any knowledge that they are experiments also corupts the control status of those vaults. its bad scientific theory plain and simple.

so no.. i dont thnk the enclave experiments have any value because they dont adhere to scientific theory as it partains to obtaining emperical evidence.
likewise, i dont know what the aliens are effectively trying to do, or even why.. their experiments are being done for purposes unknown, so you cant logically say they arent viable, or that they are.. you can only speculate as to what they might be up to.. and thats cool if you take umbridge with that. . that youd rather have it spelled out what they were doing.. call it a flimsly plotline if you wish..

Did you even read the second part of my post? Here it is again.

"I fail to see the problem with the Enclave using the vaults as a social experiment for space travel. They didn't know what scenarios could happen, so they tested out as many as they possibly could. It's never a waste of money and resources to ensure that things will go as planned. The Enclave is first and foremost a political organization, and politicians generally do spend money on what may seem like pointless and draining ventures to the rest of us. Politics isn't as easy as "So does this make sense?" Politicians have to think fifty moves ahead, and do what they feel is best. Political science isn't really rocket science. Sorry I just had to include that really bad joke in there somewhere.

Either way it's inconsequential if it doesn't make sense to us because it probably made sense to the Enclave when they first came up with the plan. Was it a good plan? That's another story; just because the guys who came up with it were politicians who could think ahead doesn't mean they were necessarily right. The plan makes perfect sense if you look at it like a politician operating on a paranoid cold war-type mindset, however. There was absolutely nothing rational about American politics during the Cold War which is often recognized today when we look back on it. We regard McCarthyism as a terrible mistake now, but back then it seemed sensible because we were irrationally afraid of communism. You are ultimately a product of your era and your circumstances. What doesn't make sense to you can make perfect sense to someone else."

Just because the experiments seem useless to you doesn't mean they seemed useless to the guys who thought them up at the time.

as far as space.. see also any prison ever. that simply illustrates that you dont have to be in a vault to have limited space, or see the effects it has on people.


hopld up, youre the one that says the enclave has nothing but the best.. so if they do, surely their auxillary guel would be of balanced nutrition.


oh but i did know that.. its ironic that they couldnt repair that part, not replace it.. a control vault without all of its gear is not a control vault at all.



yes, i could see trees.. so what? its not as if people couldnt go interact with eachouther, play games, talk.. thats the point.. they only took away the TV. but if a tree is too much, i fall back on my military bootcamp days.. no we could not go outside and hang out. no we couldnt have anything. not that big a deal, expecially when you consider the alternative of being dead in the wastes.



again, if either of those scenarios of having a 1 to 999 ration of M/F or F/M were any concern, seeing how they behave wouldnt be the experiment youd need to do. findng what would lead up to that scenario and putting in failsafes would be the experiment you need to do. i mean.. just because its testable, it has merit? then there should be over a thousand other vaults with every combination of M/F ratios, otherwise its just mastvrbation.



where are all these other civilians youre talking about? the oil rig and the vaults are the oly places with any pure gene humans left, remember?



water doesnt just dissapear.. if the water that you used for plants ran out, why wouldnt the water for people run out? oh, probably because for this plan for a spaceship to cruise indefinately to work, youd need water recycling systems



that is essentially what i said.

They're on the oil rig (or more to the point, were until very recently).

The Enclave, and even the Oil rig is not the military. Yes, as a percentage of population the Enclave military probably is very overweight, but they aren't the military.


Don't confuse intention with action.

I see we're never going to convince each other here... I won't try. Noone's saying the pre war enclave plan was perfect, they had 120-odd possible specimen jars, and a group of people they wanted to give the best possible chance of saving. Either you see the value in attempting to anticipate potential issues and attempt to mitigate them before launch, or you don't.

really?

yes, i read the second part of what you read. my reply to that would be the second part of my post thats missing from the quote in your reply.

so the civilians that are already living under th enclaves rules with no way on or off are goingto behave differently if they were in space?
i think youre giving the location (stranded at sea or stranded in space) too much credit


but.. just to sum up..
"lets do a bunch of experiments on people in confined isolated spaces to see how it effects them, and how we can apply that to the people we already have living in a confined isolated space.

*palmface*


they could have lect the vaults alone and that would have given people the best possible chance to be saved.

if they wanted to give the best chance to people they wanted to launch, they could have picked more pertinant experiments to run and actually executed scientific theory to cary them out.

let me ask.. speculate if you will..
lets say the mormons adapt a "everyone is a child of god and therefore nakedness is OK" attitude when confronted with their vault experiment..
does that show that everyone else would react the same way? certainly not-because unless im mistaken the enclave isnt comprised of mormons.
see how the exdperiment its self is scientifically flawed?

all of them are.
thats my point..

you guys seem to be confusing intent with feasability,...

The folks in the Enclave facility were in one set of circumstances, and a particularly good one compared to the vaults. Their facility would assumedly be particilarly well run, not falling to bits. Have a plentyful supply of water. Have one particular Male-Female gender balance. Not be AI run. Have limited to no Radiation exposure. Not be subjected to white noise commands or psycotropic drugs, not be all children, not all be clones of one person, not all spend their entire life in VR, have no exposure to FEV, etc, etc, etc. They aren't experiencing all of the possible things that *can* happen.

I'm an amateur glider pilot. Trying to land on a strong wind day the same way you'd would on a no wind day is a recipe to kill yourself, and vice versa. Just because you can safely land in one, doesn't mean you have all of the skills, knowledge and experience to do the other.

Besides, the Enclave reperesent the nations finest... What fool would want to experiment on them?

Out in the sea, the damage form the bomb done on the Oil Rig will be minimum, way out in the hot zone. Space-wise, no one knows what up there that would have the Enclave to support themselves, but I would assume along the line that they are not that dumb to just shoot in the sky without a plan.


But they did not. Its a grand experiment on human being and for science. If the war did not happen, I doubt the vault experiment would pull off the way it was now. Some Vaults were fortunate enough that their experiment involve recolonizing the wasteland.


Mormon bought the vault; they were never with the Enclave, but they are still subjected to the Vault Experiment.

i understand the concept of testing in order to develop contingenciy plans. i am saying they arent testing for the right contingencies....... And even if (and thats a big if) they were, their tests are flawed on a fundamental level.. so the data will be flawed making it useless in a practical sense.. period.

have fun with this thread, im out

I don't know if this has been brought up (I've read most of the posts in thread, but not all - and I could very well have missed something,) but even if the Enclave was setting the Vaults up as a sinister series of secret experiments - a good portion of those would reasonably have had to be "control" vaults. Because otherwise the data would have been useless. I'd figure that the vast majority of the Vaults were designed to work just like Vault City did - whether out the apocalypse and then use the GECK to set up the infrastructure necessary to start rebuilding civilization.

Sure, that doesn't make them any less evil, or give all that much credence to their plans - but obviously if this all was an experiment, then a good many of the Vaults would have had to have been designed to succeed. Otherwise it would have made all of the "data" collected afterwards rather pointless.