5m+ Sold, Positive Critical Consensus, and a Professional Em

Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:53 pm

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/fallout-new-vegas/1132960p1.html
http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-360/fallout-new-vegas

I've been gaming for more than two decades, and Fallout: New Vegas is the most broken game I've ever bought, played, or "finished" (games of this nature are so large, it's practically impossible to say you've done everything in the game, particularly with premium DLC on the horizon).

Do I expect any game to be glitchless? No in general, double no specifically for an open-ended sandbox RPG with actual hundreds of discrete locations to discover and thousands of characters to interact with. I slapped my money on the counter knowing the glowing digital window to this iteration of Fallout would have streaks, smears, and cracks running top to bottom, front to back.

There's a difference between an acceptance of flaws and what I was confronted with in NV, however. This window to NV's world wasn't just cracked and dirty, it provided such a comprehensively unpolished, chaotically messy portrait that to say the game is broken is a massive understatement, and to say it's demolished would be an understatement. If I were to accurately describe the failing of NV as a consumer product, a piece of entertainment, and a valuable investment of my time, money, and attention, the anology I'd use isn't flowery or tortured; the experience is fundamentally incomplete, as in undone, a husk, a shadow, a framework of something rich and vital, the evidence of potential, squandered and spoiled. You see, hear, and go on a tour of a wasteland in Fallout: New Vegas, but this one ain't in the Mojave, it's at the tips of your fingers every time you try to basically control and meaningfully engage in the experience of the game, from either a narrative perspective or a mechanical one.

I played the X360 version of NV, until I hit the level cap through side quests, discovery, etc. and then I completed the main quest line. During that time I encountered probably more than a thousand separate issues that either spoiled my immersion in what was happening, or made the experience unplayable. I'm not gonna list everything, because 1) if you played/are playing the game, you have no choice but to encounter these glitches, because we're all playing the same game and 2) if you worked/are working on the game, there's no excuse for not knowing, as it's your job to identify, notify, and solve major--not all--problems with your product.

What the hell, my five most memorable:

1. Low-to-high level enemy characters randomly becoming invulnerable to all types of high-level damage, from melee to nuclear.
2. Getting stuck in VATS, just before killing the last enemy in a prolonged battle.
3. Killing a main enemy (Victor), progressing to the next area via load screen, only to confront the same enemy again and killing him again.
4. Characters leaving weapons and/or body parts floating in mid-air as they transition from their introductory marks to their scripted movement routines, or leaving twitchy/flickery/unlootable duplicates of their model hovering over their corpses after they die.
5. Being unable to complete quests because of the above issues, or other more mundane ones.

The fifth one, for me, is unforgivable. You're making an RPG, so quests are your bread and butter. That's like saying you're making toast, except without bread and butter. I can at least tolerate the thousand stupid little glitches that do nothing except ruin the veracity of the moment and totally countermand any sort of zoned-in emotional or psychological trigger where all the flaws fade away and the sheer experience of what you're witnessing and participating in as observer and player overwhelms whatever the nuisance of the moment is. But if there's one thing that should be the constant beneficiary of whatever limited creative resources an RPG dev team has, it's the conception, scripting (from dialogue, to events, and most obviously, pathfinding and objective markers), and execution of the quest lines in the game, and certainly at least the main quest line. As an example, after the final battle, when all enemies were no more than conquered heaps of non-essential loot, the game didn't recognize I'd achieved the main objective, so I walked around the objective markers which were still needlessly highlighted, wondering what the hell to do, until I was teleported to the final in-game conversation--mid-dialogue--totally unaware of what was happening, why it was happening, or whether it meant anything besides the game disappointing me again. Two other quests had similar issues where the achievement of the objective wasn't recognized, so completion forever went untriggered, regardless of re-loads. They were side quests (one cost me the ability to use Power Armor, which is at least half the point of a Fallout game), but to have the same problem rear its ugly head during the climix of the story and gameplay was just pathetic.

So I seethed, and I watched the credits roll. And I saw Obsidian's QA department for Fallout: New Vegas had a whopping two credited testers. Bethesda had 17 under the main QA heading, and a group I didn't count under a sub-heading. When the developer of a game this size has two credited game testers, and relies on its publisher to catch, catalog, and correct the mistakes they made on a technological foundation that's at least five years old and has been the platform for at least three high-selling, well-received games (Oblivion, Fallout 3, and New Vegas), it's not only a professional embarrassment, it's an obvious admission of company policy and philosophy: We don't need to test for or solve this game's problems, it'll sell anyway. They're obviously right (see supporting links), and they got me this time with NV, but I refuse to be a volunteer member of Obsidian's QA staff. I will never buy another game under their banner again. The two Bethesda games preceding this one to utilize the same engine were glitchy, but, per my experience, they were not not this glitchy. There was also the small matter of being able to reach each of those games' crescendos without wondering what the hell was going on or how I literally ended up there.

If I developed Fallout: New Vegas and I put my name on it when the consensus was that the work was done, I'd be ashamed of what stands as a representation of my commitment and effort, not just embarrassed.
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Auguste Bartholdi
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:32 pm

Two testers ain't enough. 15-20 is minimum IMO. That said I've had little to no problems with F:NV. Some minor glitches here and there but nothing major,
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luke trodden
 
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Post » Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:15 am

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/fallout-new-vegas/1132960p1.html
http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-360/fallout-new-vegas

I've been gaming for more than two decades, and Fallout: New Vegas is the most broken game I've ever bought, played, or "finished" (games of this nature are so large, it's practically impossible to say you've done everything in the game, particularly with premium DLC on the horizon).

Do I expect any game to be glitchless? No in general, double no specifically for an open-ended sandbox RPG with actual hundreds of discrete locations to discover and thousands of characters to interact with. I slapped my money on the counter knowing the glowing digital window to this iteration of Fallout would have streaks, smears, and cracks running top to bottom, front to back.

There's a difference between an acceptance of flaws and what I was confronted with in NV, however. This window to NV's world wasn't just cracked and dirty, it provided such a comprehensively unpolished, chaotically messy portrait that to say the game is broken is a massive understatement, and to say it's demolished would be an understatement. If I were to accurately describe the failing of NV as a consumer product, a piece of entertainment, and a valuable investment of my time, money, and attention, the anology I'd use isn't flowery or tortured; the experience is fundamentally incomplete, as in undone, a husk, a shadow, a framework of something rich and vital, the evidence of potential, squandered and spoiled. You see, hear, and go on a tour of a wasteland in Fallout: New Vegas, but this one ain't in the Mojave, it's at the tips of your fingers every time you try to basically control and meaningfully engage in the experience of the game, from either a narrative perspective or a mechanical one.

I played the X360 version of NV, until I hit the level cap through side quests, discovery, etc. and then I completed the main quest line. During that time I encountered probably more than a thousand separate issues that either spoiled my immersion in what was happening, or made the experience unplayable. I'm not gonna list everything, because 1) if you played/are playing the game, you have no choice but to encounter these glitches, because we're all playing the same game and 2) if you worked/are working on the game, there's no excuse for not knowing, as it's your job to identify, notify, and solve major--not all--problems with your product.

What the hell, my five most memorable:

1. Low-to-high level enemy characters randomly becoming invulnerable to all types of high-level damage, from melee to nuclear.
2. Getting stuck in VATS, just before killing the last enemy in a prolonged battle.
3. Killing a main enemy (Victor), progressing to the next area via load screen, only to confront the same enemy again and killing him again.
4. Characters leaving weapons and/or body parts floating in mid-air as they transition from their introductory marks to their scripted movement routines, or leaving twitchy/flickery/unlootable duplicates of their model hovering over their corpses after they die.
5. Being unable to complete quests because of the above issues, or other more mundane ones.

The fifth one, for me, is unforgivable. You're making an RPG, so quests are your bread and butter. That's like saying you're making toast, except without bread and butter. I can at least tolerate the thousand stupid little glitches that do nothing except ruin the veracity of the moment and totally countermand any sort of zoned-in emotional or psychological trigger where all the flaws fade away and the sheer experience of what you're witnessing and participating in as observer and player overwhelms whatever the nuisance of the moment is. But if there's one thing that should be the constant beneficiary of whatever limited creative resources an RPG dev team has, it's the conception, scripting (from dialogue, to events, and most obviously, pathfinding and objective markers), and execution of the quest lines in the game, and certainly at least the main quest line. As an example, after the final battle, when all enemies were no more than conquered heaps of non-essential loot, the game didn't recognize I'd achieved the main objective, so I walked around the objective markers which were still needlessly highlighted, wondering what the hell to do, until I was teleported to the final in-game conversation--mid-dialogue--totally unaware of what was happening, why it was happening, or whether it meant anything besides the game disappointing me again. Two other quests had similar issues where the achievement of the objective wasn't recognized, so completion forever went untriggered, regardless of re-loads. They were side quests (one cost me the ability to use Power Armor, which is at least half the point of a Fallout game), but to have the same problem rear its ugly head during the climix of the story and gameplay was just pathetic.

So I seethed, and I watched the credits roll. And I saw Obsidian's QA department for Fallout: New Vegas had a whopping two credited testers. Bethesda had 17 under the main QA heading, and a group I didn't count under a sub-heading. When the developer of a game this size has two credited game testers, and relies on its publisher to catch, catalog, and correct the mistakes they made on a technological foundation that's at least five years old and has been the platform for at least three high-selling, well-received games (Oblivion, Fallout 3, and New Vegas), it's not only a professional embarrassment, it's an obvious admission of company policy and philosophy: We don't need to test for or solve this game's problems, it'll sell anyway. They're obviously right (see supporting links), and they got me this time with NV, but I refuse to be a volunteer member of Obsidian's QA staff. I will never buy another game under their banner again. The two Bethesda games preceding this one to utilize the same engine were glitchy, but, per my experience, they were not not this glitchy. There was also the small matter of being able to reach each of those games' crescendos without wondering what the hell was going on or how I literally ended up there.

If I developed Fallout: New Vegas and I put my name on it when the consensus was that the work was done, I'd be ashamed of what stands as a representation of my commitment and effort, not just embarrassed.

What game number is this to you?

This is my 164th game for basically everything....my 92th PC Game...and there is a heck alot more broken games than this one

One game was built on the sole purpose to irritate the player to the point he would turn off his console....it wasn't a bug/glitch but A FREAKING FEATURE!!!

This game is relatively bug free compared to the bug-fest Bioware released on June 18, 2002...my first PC game(Not the game mentioned above that was a PS2 game based on the bunnies of Bomberman you know the racing one, lol?)

The game was a success in my books, It only harmed like 2-10% of the PC population but mainly it attracted people by the bugs floating DOC oh my! LOL (I didn't suffer this bug and I was one of the first few to get Fallout:NV first in my group of friends)

5 million is a lot...how that equals $300 Million is beyond me...(I got $250-283 mil regardless)
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Mr.Broom30
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:22 pm

unprofessional, is how this was handled... and you got their message only partly correct. it is "we release games in any condition we want, because they'll sell, and because the community wants to play a working version of the game so badly they end up fixing it themselves and we don't have to do anything"
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Gemma Archer
 
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Post » Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:58 am

*rant on*

people with no idea whatsoever on what it takes to put this level of complexity into a game that spans all platforms have no right whatsoever to criticise to this level.

if it was bug free i would be more than amaxed,stunned and flabberghasted.
the fact that it can be played from start to finish alone is an amazement to me.

feckin ungrateful spoiled children.

*rant off*
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hannaH
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:10 pm

I would agree Obsidian have been chewing more then they can in the last two years. i.e. while NV is developed.

But I would think Bethesda should have been more proactive about play testing, after all, they own the franchise, not Obsidian.
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Melanie
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:32 pm

*rant on*

people with no idea whatsoever on what it takes to put this level of complexity into a game that spans all platforms have no right whatsoever to criticise to this level.

if it was bug free i would be more than amaxed,stunned and flabberghasted.
the fact that it can be played from start to finish alone is an amazement to me.

feckin ungrateful spoiled children.

*rant off*



AGREED.


Personally though, I really haven't had that much issue with my game (I play on PS3). The odd frozen moment here or there, but really, nothing to put me off. I'm used to other glitches from the other game and they really don't bother me, at all!
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Yvonne Gruening
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:47 pm

While the OP makes his point rather poetically (at first anyway), it still doesn't dismiss the fact these threads are soooo October, get over it already.
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gandalf
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:06 pm

AGREED.


Personally though, I really haven't had that much issue with my game (I play on PS3). The odd frozen moment here or there, but really, nothing to put me off. I'm used to other glitches from the other game and they really don't bother me, at all!



That is absolutely absurd to say that we are ungrateful. The company should be grateful we purchase their games. We are the customer. I have had a few issues with my PS3 version, but no game should be this glitchy/buggy. I work in the software development industry and this level of bugs to a end user is not acceptable...especially when some of them are show stoppers where the user has to reboot due to game freezing. What if medical software was this buggy, or ATM software, or the bank software your bank uses. That is just ridiculous to say that we should be grateful for a game. We are the paying customers and it is in our right as such to demand perfection or close to it. I'll definitely wait to buy my next Bethesda game to see what the consumers are saying...no more buying on release day for me due to their acceptable level of defects.
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Monika Fiolek
 
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Post » Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:32 am

Two testers ain't enough. 15-20 is minimum IMO. That said I've had little to no problems with F:NV. Some minor glitches here and there but nothing major,


You are one of the lucky ones. While i have had nothing serious like the save issue i have head bunch of little ones such as being stuck in VATS mode to the game freezing on me. These maybe minor glitches but they are bloody annoying and would have been found if it was properly tested.


EDIT: Did they really only have two game testers?
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Kayleigh Williams
 
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Post » Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:04 am

Whenever I need a laugh, I look for one of these threads. I especially love the people who work in the "software industry" and complain about bugs and glitches. *Those* posts are my favorite in a thread like this.

I've had minor problems. Nothing game-breaking. Love this game.
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Greg Cavaliere
 
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Post » Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:08 am

If you really have been gaiming for twenty years (BTW 25 for me) then you have to have seen games that are unplayable. Alien Logic and Gateway come to mind. Fallout NV is a complex piece of software that does amazing things.

3. Killing a main enemy (Victor), progressing to the next area via load screen, only to confront the same enemy again and killing him again.
Victor is a main enemy? He is nothing more than an electronic post-it note for Mr House. Securitrons are hardware. Victor, Yes Man, and strip police are software. They can jump from one mobile computer to the next.

There are trillions and trillions of combinations of factors affecting quest outcomes depending on what you are wearing, your inventory, order of quests, beginning stats, current health, number of enemies, location on the map, and many more. It would be impossible for 1000 people working for a year to find all the problematic configurations. Add to that the number of unique PC configurations from Dell's that can't run the game to home built systems with beta video drivers and you quickly (if you thought about it at all) come to the realization that no PC game is ever completely free of bugs. But it is easier to blame the game and its developers than to update your video driver.

it provided such a comprehensively unpolished, chaotically messy portrait that to say the game is broken is a massive understatement.

And you sir, are enamored with hyperbole. The game is not broken - I have finished it twice and had tons of fun. Well worth my investment.
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Baylea Isaacs
 
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Post » Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:30 am

people with no idea whatsoever on what it takes to put this level of complexity into a game that spans all platforms have no right whatsoever to criticise to this level.


What "level" are players allowed to criticize to, then?

The only thing that bugs me more than complaining about bugs on these forums (because it belongs in the technical issues forum, or just because it's getting old) is shooting down people who complain about bugs as if they don't have the right to complain.

Everybody has a right to criticize. And when you pay full price for a game that freezes multiple times every time you sit down to play it, as Xbox 360 users like myself have done, then you damn sure have a right to call out somebody for not doing their job.
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Sammi Jones
 
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Post » Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:33 am

I got the PC version. I never ran into any of the bugs you mentioned. That said, I DID run into a few bugs that irked me, but they were either fixed with fan-made patches, or else I reloaded an earlier save (and I save constantly). Overall, I feel New Vegas was worth my money and I enjoyed it immensely, despite the bugs.
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David Chambers
 
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Post » Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:42 am

I HAVE been one of the lucky ones on PS3. I'm able to play in spite of the problems I'm having but it's true, there are things that are hurting the immersion into the game - and that's the whole reason I play RPG. Last night I was running over mesh instead of landscape. It happened twice and I hope it doesn't happen again. My game froze again but I save often and didn't lose much. I restarted the console and did it over again. I'm hoping I'll be able to reach the end of my game and it won't die on me like Oblivion did.

I want to support these games. They are huge and complicated and I expect some problems but the mesh thing was new and the invisible walls are new to me. It is a step backward technically and it's hurting the experience...and it makes me sad. Just sad. I know the developers didn't intend for that to happen and I wonder if they were rushed or what....I don't know.

It was my first-ever pre-order. It was a lot of fun but after all is said and done, I just don't know if I could do that again. Please, whoever can make this better, do that. This has to be embarassing for you and I know you don't want that. I don't want that for you either.
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ZANEY82
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 7:59 pm

That is absolutely absurd to say that we are ungrateful. The company should be grateful we purchase their games. We are the customer. I have had a few issues with my PS3 version, but no game should be this glitchy/buggy. I work in the software development industry and this level of bugs to a end user is not acceptable...especially when some of them are show stoppers where the user has to reboot due to game freezing. What if medical software was this buggy, or ATM software, or the bank software your bank uses. That is just ridiculous to say that we should be grateful for a game. We are the paying customers and it is in our right as such to demand perfection or close to it. I'll definitely wait to buy my next Bethesda game to see what the consumers are saying...no more buying on release day for me due to their acceptable level of defects.


i literally laughed loud and long at this.

your comparing a £25 game with software that costs a single end user millions,yes...MILLIONS,and saying the bug testing should be on par with it.

the level of ignorance astounds me.


may i also make a comparison.

the cost of a new car and the cost of a loaf of bread these days.
its as relevant as the OP and your point,and as so far away from reality.


everytime a game has bugs,someone wants a class action suit and personal attention of an entire development team,because they spent a few pounds.


ps..
Kicenna made the only point that irked me..invisible walls shouldnt have been used,it does ruin a large part of the "free roam and unrestricted gameplay" i am used to from these devs.
so stop it Obsidian/Bethesda
stop it NOW and never do it again. :hubbahubba:
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Jani Eayon
 
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Post » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:05 am

Kids, kids never change.

Ungrateful spoiled brats, from a ME generation of wannabe indigo oh my gawd I am a unique snowflake generation.

Haven't encountered a single crash or freeze and that is to be expected in a game as large as this.

Making games for multiple platforms and even just different pc's is a pita! Most people have no idea, that the real testing on pc's at least, starts the day the game is released, it is impossible to account for all the different types of hardware/software configurations and user errors!

Now I don't own a console and would personally never touch one. (It is a principle) But imo the console generation just seems to be younger and more spoiled, and just annoying and whining.

Aren't there console dedicated forums? I mean why do I have to read the drivel that comes out of their undereducated and unstimulated neural cortex's!
I swear my IQ drops every time I open up a gaming forum.

I come here to share my experiences, while the fact that I generally have a positive outlook on life, might influence that I am more easily satisfied, makes no difference. We are gamers, we want to share experiences with other gamers, not read through mega humongous wall of whine texts!

I work with leadership/team-building/cognitive learning etc. on a daily basis. And making a forum rule that explicitly bans people who make nonconstructive posts, would be a very good idea.
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Chase McAbee
 
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Post » Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:53 pm

Once again a topic of this type has degenerated into name calling and flaming each other. It seems that the ability to have a constructive and useful discussion has vanished.
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Soph
 
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