Uneducated? First off, it's called the Aldmeri Dominion. Before you call the Stormcloaks uneducated, please take steps to ensure that you yourself are educated, especially the correct spelling of your overlords. It's the least they would expect from a lowly willing slave like you.

Beer drinking? What's wrong with that?

Homophobes? If you put on the amulet of mara on in Windhelm, you'll find that there are many openly gay people who will hit on you out in the streets.

Intolerance? You mean like how the Aldmeri Dominion is intolerant of Talos worship? So we seem to have a confused statement from you. Apparently it is not ok for Nords to be intolerant, but it is ok for the Aldmeri Dominion?

Sense of entitlement? Skyrim is their freakin' country. Since when is wanting to take charge of their own country considered self-entitlement? What kind of planet are you on where you think other countries telling you how to run your country and telling you what you can or cannot worship is considered acceptable?

Ignorant? Your entire post is filled with ignorance where your only source seems to be listening to what your friends tell you, so it's pure gold to see this coming from you.



Selling out your countryman for 1500 gold is the right thing? You want to sell out your entire country while you're at it? You should be thrown into the dungeons and left to rot.

I understand where you’re coming from, but because the Thalmor believe they’re acts are right in their eyes, doesn’t change the definition to evil. To attempt to wipe someone or someone’s ideals out just because you don’t think they’re right is almost as evil as you can get.

By the way, this is just an enthralling conversation we’re having. Best I’ve had here yet.

While I totally and completely agree with you Nubius, that was uncalled for. If you kept reading the thread, you'd realize that comment has already been bashed a dozen times and the guy has either realized his errors or fled in shame.

So my Dunnmer, who freed every single Argonian slave that he ever met, has to suffer the same 'karma'?

By the mythic I mean the world.


It really depends on your point of view.
The Thalmor see the Mundus as a trap, a prison, 'the doom-drum's great iniquity.'

They desire to free themselves from that trap, and something in their way is the existence of humans and their affirmation by the gods.
(And the belief in the gods of the human races)
When you pick a lock, do you think about how it must feel at you unlawfully opening her?

They are not evil, because they are not of evil intent.
Evil implies a wilful desire to cause harm, destruction or pain.
The Thalmor think that their way will end all pain.

They are the enemy, yes.
But not evil.
It is very rare that any enemy is truly, really, evil.
Who wakes up in the morning, twiddles his moustache and ties a girl to the train tracks?
Nobody sees their own selves as evil.

Is he, currently?

Last I checked, there were about seven Dunmer in Windhelm. All had homes and jobs, and only had to deal with threats and insults from a drunkard. The Argonians had it far worse, and weren't nearly as big a sob story as the Dunmer are.

So, I can safely say: Non-Nords won't be treated NEARLY as bad under Ulfric as non-Altmer are currently. Racial purges, oppression, slaughters for different beliefs, etc.

The Thalmor need to be driven out, immediately. It's a shame the Stormcloaks don't realize that and stay with the Empire so they can slowly raise a powerful army together and strike when the iron is hot.

Indeed it is, though I'll soon succumb to my weariness I fear :sadvaultboy:
Evil is a purely relative term. What one person considers evil may be what another considers righteous. There is no true universal definition of evil that can apply to every person. It's much more complicated than that. It's up to each and every individual to decide for themselves what is evil and what is not, lest they allow some outside force to tell them what to believe. For some, western civilization is the incarnation of evil. For others, it's eastern civilization. For some, it's neither. It all depends on what you believe. Saying the Thalmor are evil for being ultra selfish is just like saying Ulfric is evil for almost the same thing. While I genuinely hate the Thalmor on all of my characters, and I generally consider them evil, that doesn't mean that they truly are evil. Food for thought.

Very interesting, but just because you don’t see yourself as evil doesn’t make you immune to the word, If I may use your example, I could wake up and tie a girl to the train tracks and believe myself a saint for doing so. Seeing no evil in my actions and even thinking it will help me reach a higher plane of existence. But at the end of the day I would be evil as can be.

The Thalmor in a nutshell:"Profound immorality, wickedness, and depravity"

That's the problem with the Stormcloaks. They picked the worst possible time, of all time, to mount a rebellion.

Seriously, all of human existence is under threat, and they pick 'now' to shake things up?

:banghead:

That would depend on if you really reached heaven that way or were just a hokerr.
The Thalmor have justification in their beliefs, their race has done such mathemagics since the first era, they resisted the great dragon break of the Alessian Order ( Auri-El remained) and the only reason the Altmer ever succumbed to the Empire was the attack of the Numidium.
(Dont you think that is evil as well? The Altmer fight the Walking Brass from the first to the fiftth, yet the surrender is done in an hour)

I would disagree on wickedness and immorality, as in their world view they are just, right and champions.
To risk bringing real world politics into this I would just say that one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist and leave it at that.
I suppose anyone can understand how these things can be seen differently.

To whom? Many, likely. The girl, for certain. To yourself, to others who also believe doing so would help you reach a higher plane of existence? Not at all. And therein lies the issue.
The Thalmor, like it or not, are getting quite large. It's basically about half of the provinces saying "Thalmor are evil for erasing other races!" and the other half saying "Thalmor are saints for erasing other races!"
It all depends on your side of the fence. And realistically I know the Thalmor don't have that many friends, but it serves to illustrate my point if we assume that all of the Thalmor controlled regions support them.

It doesn't matter if Akavir doesn't think that the Thalmor are evil.

Currently, they're trying to slaughter people for worshiping a true hero, and a possible god, that they've worshiped since the Empire existed. The Thalmor came in, told them not to, and started killing them if they were even SUSPECTED for worshiping him.

Regardless of what you might think, everybody in Tamriel KNOWS that's evil. ESPECIALLY the Stormcloaks. They're response? Get off their asses and proactively kick any Thalmor authority out of Skyrim. The only way that's possible? Get the Empire out of Skyrim, so the White-Gold Concordant no longer applies.

Edit: @above: Actually, the Thalmor controlled regions hate them. Why? Thalmor DOMINATE. They conquer and capture. They don't ask nicely, they don't reason, and they certainly don't bother putting 'lesser' races on equal footing. The Bosmer, the only race that can even remotely be considered their friends, dislike/hate them more often than not.

Then there's the brutal rebellion in Hammerfell, in which the Redguards fought tooth and nail with all they had to kick the Thalmor's asses out of their country, and succeeded, for the most part.

The Thalmor sure aren't making any friends, and that's going to bite them in the ass. I'm not evens sure all the high elves agree with them, either.

It would seem we are at an impasse, but before I go to slumber I’ll just leave with this note. The Thalmor are the enemy, I think we can all agree on this. I see them having a big role in either the DLC’s or the next game. We must all ban together to kill them… then leave them in awkward positions. Good night everybody.

*Roll Credits*

...and the resulting chaos and blood shed give the Thalmore the opening they need to crush Skyrim into paste.

The Nords are strong yes, but they are not enough to take out the Thalmore alone.

Edit to add: Yes the Redguards did repel them. However it is cannon that the Redguards are simply the most superior fighters in all of ES....The Nords...well...Like I said they are strong, but they refuse to use magic and that is a big, big, disadvantage when your fighting elves.

I know? I side with the stormcloaks in about half of my playthroughs. I fully support free Skyrim repelling the Thalmor as Hammerfell did. I make it a point to kill ever last Thalmor lover I come across and leave their corpses strewn in humiliating manners. I may believe the Thalmor are evil, but that doesn't change anything. I was just pointing out that due to the pure relativity of the term "evil", you cannot simply ascribe that the Thalmor are, truly, evil.

@above
I disagree. Hammerfell fought for 5 years after the White-Gold Concordant. That means they had no imperial aid and were up against the full might of the Aldmeri Dominion. It wasn't an easy fight, but they won. Now, Nords have always made up the bulk of the Imperial army and the more powerful soldiers. Why then, would a free Skyrim fail to stand against the Dominion when Hammerfell succeeded? Hammerfell was weakened even farther than a civil-war Skyrim, in that half of Hammerfell was controlled by the Dominion and had been subjected to Thalmor rule.

And to the post above about the lack of friends the Thalmor are experiencing, I know. I was just trying to make my point about the relativity of evil. I am fully aware that the Thalmor have very few true supporters outside of their own organization. Heck, many of the Thalmor themselves probably don't like it.

Noone here is disputing that the Thalmor are the enemy and that they must be stopped. Let's all agree on that at least. I'm going to bed now... we've completely butchered the original topic, but this is definitely one of my favorite conversations here on the board. Have fun guys.

*Interesting scene once all credits are rolled*

But, the Altmer and Bosmer may hesitate to go against their own people.

I was simply stating the intentions of the Stormcloak, which are fairly reasonable. People are being dragged from their homes and murdered. The Empire is not only not helping the Nords, but SUPPORTING those who commit the murders. What would your first response be? Just sit back and take it, hoping the Empire MAYBE does something eventually?


I was simply stating that it doesn't matter whether some jerk-off in Akavir, or the Thalmor themselves, think the Thalmor aren't evil. What they're doing to the races of man, beast races, and most mer races is entirely evil to those they're performing them to. Which, in TES, is all that matters for the player, since he's one of those races.

Sure, they may not be viewed as evil by every single person. But the majority of every race besides Altmer view them as such, which is enough justification to bring them down. At the least, drive them back home. At the worst, slaughter each and every one of them and destroy ever single thing that may possibly be owned by the Thalmor, which may even be too merciful for the worst.

EDIT: Edited above post instead. Sorry for this one.

I'd assume the guy you dobbed in has been killed and tossed into a river somewhere. I helped the Thalmor as well as an Argonian, after all, I help EVERYONE.
I don't hate the Thalmor though. I respect where they are coming from, the whole elf supremacy thing is bit extreme, but to be fair, Talos wasn't one of the original gods, therefore I see their arguement as valid, though I wouldn't go around executing people. Its a difficult topic, as with all of the conflicts in skyrim.

Thalmor play the long game though.
Humans think in years, decades at best.

What do you do against an opponent that thinks in centuries?
You stall them. Which is exactly what the Stormcloaks are doing and exactly what the Thalmor predicted.
In the end it does not really matter if they are thrown out of the region.
What matters is that the seed of doubt about Talos is planted, and that they have made prohets out of those they converted.

The Empire plans things, watches, and waits for the right moment to strike. it not like they were happy about this, they had a tough decision to make. They don't turn a country upsidown and weaken it further. Yes they have a valid reason to be angry, all Nords do, but just rushing into battle, while screaming, and swinging a huge sword isn't going to make all the elves disappear.

Like I said they picked the worst possible moment, to agitate an already bad situation. If they had really wanted a free Skyrim they would have helped to repel the Thalmore first, working within the empire....then make a bid for freedom.

Ysgramor says otherwise.

And I agree. I always have. I think the Stormcloaks should have stayed with the Empire and bided their time, gathering strength and striking when they're ready to kill all the Thalmor. That's right, I said KILL. Driving them out won't work, according to history. They'll just come back in a few centuries to strike again.

But, the Stormcloaks' intentions are entirely understandable. I wouldn't sit idly by and let my people be killed. Then again, I'm not a military strategist.