Lockpicking perks are pointless... how to fix? : V - Skyrim

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:08 pm

There's a lockpicking tree? Never bothered to look at it.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:02 pm

Remove the mini-game. If you want the RPG mechanic of putting perks/skill into something you need to have a RPG mechanic for how it is done.

Well the recent Fallout games did this well, with a mini-game that is also directly tied to stats. Not enough lockpick skill means you can't play the game. That said I got bored of the mini-game and modded it out eventually, but I kept the skill requirements.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:28 pm

What we can do, is make it so that a chest has only a limited number of times it can be picked. If you use up the allotted number of times, the lock will be jammed and the chest then cannot be opened.

If you try to reload or exit to try again, the exact position of the unlock spot will change.

Chests containing quest items can't be jammed, like how important npcs cannot be killed.

So the perks are now more important.

Thats a great idea. I've been brainstorming a perk redesign project over in the modding forums, and something like the above would be a great system to have in it:

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1282462-wipa-detailed-anolysis-on-the-perk-and-leveling-system/

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:05 am

There's a simple solution. Make locks automatically reset position every time a pick breaks, unless you have the perk for the current lock difficutly.

So if you have the Novice Lockpick perk, Novice locks work just like they do now, but if you try an apprentice or higher lock, the lock position will change everytime you break a pick. Locks 1 or 2 levels above you would still be possible but cost a lot more picks, and locks higher than that would require sheer luck or hundreds of picks.

That way you have a clear incentive to get the perks, but higher level locks aren't completely blocked off. And it would also help with the overabundance of lockpicks.

This is the perfect solution.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:08 pm

@Bukee:

It seems you missed a couple of lines, I specifically stated that spamming picks will not work in my system, as it insures that trying that against a lock well out of your league will almost certainly ruin it beyond repair, rendering the door/container permanently sealed shut.

Here's how it works: the lower your skill is compared to the lock the higher the chance of breaking it while trying to pick it, with an additional modifier for each numerical tier of difficulty (i.e. 0, 20, 40, 60, etc.) the lock is above your current skill level. Thus, a new character with the default 15 Lockpick will have pretty much no chance in hell of opening a Master-level lock and a probability verging on automatic of trashing the lock in the process. Pick-spamming would only make this more likely; each subsequent attempt would increase, up to a point, the chance of catastrophic failure.

Save-scumming if there are random numbers involved.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:43 pm

Save-scumming if there are random numbers involved.

I did mention that would be a problem; unfortunately, the only way to address it is to have a reload delete the save file, and you can probably guess how well that would go over.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:24 pm

Save-scumming if there are random numbers involved.

I don't get why some designers hate this so much. JE Sawyer talked about it a lot on his formspring, that "we might as well allow X because save scumming blah blah." Why cater to people that game the system? That's like all these people power-leveling smithing and then being mad that they're overpowered... they gamed the system, they deserve broken balance as a result.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 9:21 am

Oh boy, here we go again.

Look, if you think the Lockpicking perks are useless, then don't use them. Just ignore the tree. <- that was easy!

Some people might spend perks in that tree. Why? Because they don't like the so-called save-scumming. Because they flat out svck at the lockpicking mini-game. Maybe just "because" and for no other reason.

If you have no trouble with lockpicking, then guess what? You don't need the perk tree, it's only pointless for you, and there's no need to fix it because it ain't broke.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:02 pm

Oh boy, here we go again.

Look, if you think the Lockpicking perks are useless, then don't use them. Just ignore the tree. <- that was easy!

The whole point is that you shouldn't be able to be the master of unlocking without any perks in the tree.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:27 pm

Or just make the difficulty scale harder. At low lockpicking skill, it can be extremely difficult to pick a master lock...That's not right. It should be extremely difficult to pick an ADEPT lock, and nigh-impossible to pick a master lock. Possible...just barely so, though.

Although with the number of perks available, it seems like a waste to use them on lockpicking regardless of whether its worth it or not.

ERRRMMM im at level 35 lockpicking skill and its impossible to pick a master lock as soon as you move the lock it breaks. there is no way to do it. i wasted 40 picks on one lock trying to do it i t was imppossible so i thik that the skill tree will defo make this easier...........if you feel its important to waste a perk on it.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:08 pm

I don't get why some designers hate this so much. JE Sawyer talked about it a lot on his formspring, that "we might as well allow X because save scumming blah blah." Why cater to people that game the system? That's like all these people power-leveling smithing and then being mad that they're overpowered... they gamed the system, they deserve broken balance as a result.

I suspect it's not hate, so much as resignation; why design a complex system if people are just going to short-circuit it by sifting saves?

I, by the way, do not subscribe to this theory, and consider it a cop-out as well as emblematic of lazy design. A well-designed complex system will actually discourage such tactics, as the player will want to try to 'beat' it the 'proper' way; unfortunately it's a hard combination to properly pull off, so few even try.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:41 pm

Just make picks break faster vs lower tier locks if you aren't skilled enough (master locks already break picks pretty damn fast without the perks) and make picks harder to come by.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 10:03 pm

ERRRMMM im at level 35 lockpicking skill and its impossible to pick a master lock as soon as you move the lock it breaks. there is no way to do it. i wasted 40 picks on one lock trying to do it i t was imppossible so i thik that the skill tree will defo make this easier...........if you feel its important to waste a perk on it.

What you do is move around the edge testing. It will break a pick every 2 or 3 times at low levels, but once you find the spot where it moves a bit you refine your search to that area, using landmarks on the lock graphic if needed. Using this method you can crack even master locks with about 10 picks at low levels, which is nothing considering how easy picks are to come by.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:48 pm

I think the perks should be more like "perks" rather than "reduce lockpicking difficulty", I liked the "Quick Hands" perk that lets you lockpick while being watched (Since you have quick hands

).

Same reason why I am a "hater" of most spell trees (Half magicka, half magicka, half magicka, half lame...), I hope Bethesda comes up with more witty perks and perhaps even enhance and improve the other already awesome perk trees (Archery zoom and slow was awesome, not a direct improvement but it made my arrow shooting life much easier and fun...and precise

).

I am enjoying the game so far, only gamebreakign glitch was fixed thanks to a quick console command (NPC not being there and me summoning him through code XD).

Perks should be unique and perhaps funny, not repetitive +10%, easier for easy, easier for medium, easier for hard and so on.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:53 pm

I wish there were more than one style of lock. Make it so that certain types of locks need certain picks, if you dont use the proper pick you can still attempt the to pick the lock but have a much harder time in doing so. Make lockpicks less abundant aswell.

Then in the perk tree make it so you can increase your chances when not using the correct lockpick. Or forge better lockpicks that can be enchanted to increase your chances.

Having it the way it is now is pointless, I can pick a master lock with no perks in a couple tries, it really does defeat the point of having a perk tree, it should be next to impossible to pick with having met certain requirments.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:56 pm

Of everything here, I prefer General Masters idea in #41. About the only one that seems to have some thought put into it. As for load spamming, here is an idea for the future at least:

Seeded random generator.
1. Create your character and a true random number is generated as a future seed.
2. Cell location times master seed gives the cell seed.
3. Each time a character enters a new cell, all items have a unique ID number that is fed through the seed to generate a success rate.

There is no additional data stored on each item (I'm no modder in TES yet, but I take it they have an ID already), and since everything can be generated on the fly, there is no impact on the savegame other than the master seed number, making it very efficient storage wise. I don't think there are that many objects within a cell to make it a memory problem.

It's not fully random as it should be (like in a dice game), but it's the only way to stop the load exploit (which we don't have in a dice game). For any given lock in a certain cell for any given character using "auto attempt", a lock might open after busting 3 picks if skill is high or 20 picks if skill is low, but it would happen all the time but only for that combination. Reload would give the same result.