Bethesda: Current State of Skill Trees

Post » Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:05 pm

Heavy Armor is better early game, Light is better late. Since both can reach cap, light ends up superior since you don't have to waste 2 perks getting conditioned like you do with heavy, and the stam regen and dodge are superior to stagger resist and reflect.

Other than that, I agree that a single perk put into lockpicking or speechcraft is a wasted perk, and smithing definitely does favor heavy armor early game, light comes out ahead with dragon scale in the end though.

These are definitely not the only issues with the skill trees though.
User avatar
KiiSsez jdgaf Benzler
 
Posts: 3546
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:10 am

Post » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:06 pm

Heavy Armor is better early game, Light is better late. Since both can reach cap, light ends up superior since you don't have to waste 2 perks getting conditioned like you do with heavy, and the stam regen and dodge are superior to stagger resist and reflect.

Other than that, I agree that a single perk put into lockpicking or speechcraft is a wasted perk, and smithing definitely does favor heavy armor early game, light comes out ahead with dragon scale in the end though.

These are definitely not the only issues with the skill trees though.



Wrong.
Heavy armor can reach the cap without all the perks in Juggernaut thus making it cost less or at least equal to light armor which need all perks to be viable.
User avatar
lexy
 
Posts: 3439
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:37 pm

Post » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:36 pm

Currently anyone with a 5 in lockpicking can pick a master lock with little/no effort.


Whatever you may think about your own lockpicking skill, your claim here is patently FALSE.

Good job.

You should really stop thinking that this game was supposed to be developed solely for you.
User avatar
Tha King o Geekz
 
Posts: 3556
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 9:14 pm

Post » Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:33 pm

Whatever you may think about your own lockpicking skill, your claim here is patently FALSE.


Not sure what you mean - it is of course impossible to have a Lockpicking skill of 5 given that the minimum skill level is 15, but it's perfectly possible to pick a Master lock with a skill of 15-20ish. I've done it.

As for people thinking a whole game mechanic svcks just because it's not how they would have done it themselves, yes I agree. I dislike that sense of entitlement.
User avatar
Dragonz Dancer
 
Posts: 3441
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:01 am

Post » Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:31 am

Skill trees are what differentiate one character from another. Basically the only means a player has outside of gear to personalize his/her character the way they desire. Why then are so many of these trees broken/imbalanced? Here is a few that need immediate attention. Feel free to add more, these are just the ones that were made immediately obvious after playing my first character.

Lockpicking:

What was your thought process behind making this a skill tree? Currently anyone with a 5 in lockpicking can pick a master lock with little/no effort. This entire tree is worthless. The only 2 mediocre perks in the entire tree are "Golden Touch" & "Treasure Hunter". Treasure hunter increases the chance the player will find "special treasure" (aka enchanted items) by 50%. So instead of having a 10% chance the player now has a whopping 15%. Waste of a perk. Golden touch is "ok". However, both of these perks are inferior to Haggling the first point in the speech tree. The player will net more gold over the course of the game from 1 point in Haggling than investing several points in a worthless tree to invest in 2 mediocre perks.

Pickpocket:

The only worthwhile perk in this entire tree is extra pockets which increases the players carry capacity by 100. Useful. However, the rest of the skill tree is again worthless. I have yet to encounter a single npc that has had notable loot that I could not acquire simply by killing.

Light Armor Vs Heavy Armor

I'm going to be blunt. Light armor in its current state is inferior to heavy armor. Here is why. Investing in the heavy armor tree gives you more armor/damage reduction (obviously), You take half damage from falling, ARMOR WEIGHS NOTHING (No sneak penalties!!!), Unarmed damage is increased provided you wear heavy gauntlets, 50% less stagger, 10% chance to reflect damage back to the enemy.

Now lets look at the benefits Light Armor provides over heavy armor. 50% stamina regen if in all light armor. Nice, however stamina has never been an issue. If your investing your attribute points wisely it never will be. In the rare, rare incident I run out of stamina I have 20+ stamina potions in my inventory that I have collected littered on the ground everywhere. 10% chance of avoiding a melee attack. Well, first of all its limited to melee. Secondly, its a 10% chance. Not reliable.

Conclusion: Heavy armor > Light Armor. How to fix? Well I thinking adding 10-15% movement speed increase to light armor would be a good start, as well as removing the weightless/no movement impairment perk in heavy armor.

Smithing:

Once again, favors heavy armor users. On once side you have light armors. On the other you have all heavy. Both of which lead up to dragon armor. HOWEVER, at the end of the heavy armor tree just before dragon armor, heavy armor users get access to daedric weapons/armor. The best items in the game. Light armor users on the other hand, have to invest in both sides if they want to create armor designed for their character & gain access to the best weapons in the game. How is this balanced?



Not sure where to begin.

Pickpocketing is very useful.
I stopped paying for training around lvl 10. I just pickpocket back my money. If you want to kill the trainers. Be my guest.
Try to do some thiefguild quests without pickpocketing. Good luck buddy boy.

Try to pickpocket someone with more then 1000 gold in their pocket without high skill and a few well spent perks.

Armor:

Heavy armor weight does not mean the stealth reduction is there.
It just means you can move faster and stamina will drain as if you wear no armor when sprinting.

Do you honestly think the 50% noise reductin perk in light armor would be nulified with the next perk in that tree, which is "no weight".
Have you even tried to use stealth in heavy armor with that perk?
I have. I can tell you, it does not work.

Heavy armor provides better armor yes.
But: You need to spend 3 perk points to get the no weight on heavy armor, where light armor not only get that for 1, but get very nice perks to it.

Unarmed damage and half damage from falls, is the pre reqs in heavy armor to get no weight. Thats 2 utterly useless perks that you must take to get it.
As a heavy armor wielding warrior, its much better to gake Stone of Steed, for +100 carry capacity AND your armor weights nothing. Saves you 3 perk points and you have more then you bargained for.

Light armor: 50% noise reduction, 50% stamina regeneration etc.

Even for melee combat builds light armor is better, if you spend perks to increase your armor level in it.
50% Stamina reg alone is incredibly useful, especially for those of us that is not abusing alchemy and running around with 100 stamina pots.

As an Archer, 50% stamina reg means I can zoom in and slow time for ALOT longer, as an example.
The noise reduction is apparent.

You must use muffled enchant to stealth in heavy armor.
But for me, playing with no enchants thats not an option, besides, why would I want to abuse the sytem to begin with and make an unrealistic character.

You can stealth and wield daggers in heavy armor if you want. Realistic? Not at all. Fun? If you like to be all powerful and use smithing, enchatning, alchemy etc, sure.

You have only made one point which everyone is aware of: Picklocking perks is absolutely useless and this tree definately needs to be reworked.
User avatar
Darian Ennels
 
Posts: 3406
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:00 pm

Post » Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:04 pm

I can pickpocket every single npc in the game with a 5 skill in pickpocket & no perks in pickpocket. In addition, if there is a weapon I want from someone I don't want to kill I can just engage in combat, use disarm shout, grab weapon, walk away. Again, pickpocket tree is useless.


You are lying.

With 15 in pickpocket your chase to steal an item work more then 50 gold is maybe 20%.
Sure you can.

I have 100 pickpocketing.
I can steal around 1000 gold with 85% chanse.

You would have 0% chanse to do this until you have around 70+ in pickpocketing.

Perks also helps.

You have not pick pocketed anything but iron arrows or the occational 2-10 gold some npcs have I notice.

Im robbing banks dry with my pickpocket and stealth.
User avatar
JUDY FIGHTS
 
Posts: 3420
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:25 am

Post » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:53 am

I think the fact that most people can't agree on which perks are good and which ones are bad says something about the perks: maybe they're not as terrible as people think?

Is +20% more damage to an attack really that much better than making novice locks easier to pick on level 2? I don't have too much trouble swinging my sword one extra time to kill that bandit and enjoy it a lot more than picking locks. Maybe making lockpicking less frustrating is a better perk?

It's pretty hard to judge any of these things objectively. If all you're looking at are the numbers, it's easy to say: "Hur, perk x is so much better than perk y!" It's much harder to quantify things like the satisfaction you get from role-playing a thief and watching your character get better at something they're supposed to be getting better at.

Seriously, sometimes it seems like all the min/maxers are doing is going around killing things. That's only half the game.
User avatar
Greg Cavaliere
 
Posts: 3514
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:31 am

Post » Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:31 pm

lockpick:

I can open master locks under 10 lockipicks so its no problem for me and if I really dont want to do it I can just assign my follower to open it. I got a brawling lady from whiterun bar that opens master locks like it was nothing. That dosnt mean the lockpick tree is bad if I roleplay a thief I would use those perk for sure.

Pickpocket:

I use quite a lot of the perks in this tree and 100 cary weight, 50% better chance of pickpocketing while sleeping, poisoning someone by playcing a poison in they`re pocket is really good. Just the ability to strip someone out of they`re clother and weapons is priceless for me.

HA/LA:

The armor debate is kinda pointless becuase of the smithing/enchanting tree so you can get to the dmg cap whichever armor you want. But if you look at the perks light armor wins hands down, you can get 50% silent movement so quickly and couple that with 50% silent movement from sneak and your thief is already set. The stamina regen is better than the hand to hand and falling perk together. And findaly the top perk - 10% of avoiding all dmg tops heavy armor perk, why would I want my armor to do 10% of a dmg to my enemie and not make my dmg smaller by at least 10%
User avatar
NAkeshIa BENNETT
 
Posts: 3519
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:23 pm

Post » Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:49 am

Is +20% more damage to an attack really that much better than making novice locks easier to pick on level 2?


Yes.

It's pretty hard to judge any of these things objectively. If all you're looking at are the numbers, it's easy to say: "Hur, perk x is so much better than perk y!" It's much harder to quantify things like the satisfaction you get from role-playing a thief and watching your character get better at something they're supposed to be getting better at.


Yes, that's exactly why we're trying to look at numbers and not something as unquantifable as roleplaying. It's nice to see you understand
User avatar
Lisa Robb
 
Posts: 3542
Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:13 pm

Post » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:18 am

Pickpocket and Lockpicking trees are entirely useless. 100 extra capacity isn't really that great, especially considering you have to get there with 2 useless perks. I havn't pumped Stamina at all (currently level 55) and I've NEVER had an issue with encumberance.

Speech is also a 'do not want' skill tree.

Smithing, even though it's ridiculously powerful at the moment the tree is still very boring.
User avatar
Harry-James Payne
 
Posts: 3464
Joined: Wed May 09, 2007 6:58 am

Post » Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:19 pm

I can pickpocket every single npc in the game with a 5 skill in pickpocket & no perks in pickpocket. In addition, if there is a weapon I want from someone I don't want to kill I can just engage in combat, use disarm shout, grab weapon, walk away. Again, pickpocket tree is useless.


[censored]. I'm a level 71 and still get caught frequently and have yet to invest many perks into it.
User avatar
Peetay
 
Posts: 3303
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:33 am

Post » Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:14 pm

Other useless perks:
- The entire Alteration tree. 30% magic resistance is too little and the 30% spell absorption is not that necessary.
- The entire Destruction tree except for damage-enhancing skills and Impact
- The entire Speech tree other than Haggling 1. Money's rarely an issue past mid game and there are lots of items that lower item prices.
- Any perk that increases chance for stealth success. With high enough sneak, these perks don't seem to make a difference (I tried putting on a bunch of +40% sneak items and they didn't make a difference).
- Any bound weapon perks. There are too many restrictions and too little gain to use bound weapons
- Cushioned. Fall damage is rarely an issue
- Wind walker. Stamina is rarely an issue at high levels

- Keymaster. Keys are the easiest things to steal

Bolded are false.

30% is a lot for both spell absorption and magic resist, the problem is the alteration tree isn't worth getting for those alone and they're all the tree really has to offer since alterations spells svck compared to armor as well as being inconvenient and costing magicka, and it takes a lot of perks to reach those few worthwhile talents.

I use mystic binding and the bound bow on my archer, I love it and it's amazing. It allows me to save a ton of perks by using dwemer armor with the quest boost to it, so I only have to spend 3 perks in smithing since bound bow is a viable weapon throughout the game especially when you consider it comes with 100 bound(daedric quality) arrows while I'd usually be using iron/steel with normal bows. The bound sword is a solid weapon early-mid game or for non-smiths too.

Wind walker is decent, stamina certainly can be an issue, it really depends on the character. It's a solid perk for some builds.

The rest I agree with.
User avatar
Emma Louise Adams
 
Posts: 3527
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 4:15 pm

Post » Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:52 pm

Vote on how you would like he perk trees to be built.

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1294045-decision-decisions/page__st__20__gopid__19505144#entry19505144
User avatar
KU Fint
 
Posts: 3402
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:00 pm

Post » Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:00 pm

Not sure what you mean - it is of course impossible to have a Lockpicking skill of 5 given that the minimum skill level is 15, but it's perfectly possible to pick a Master lock with a skill of 15-20ish. I've done it.

As for people thinking a whole game mechanic svcks just because it's not how they would have done it themselves, yes I agree. I dislike that sense of entitlement.


See people think because you do it once, it is broke..... :ahhh:

Overtime you will break a significant amount of picks if yous stay on level 15 and try to pick locks.
User avatar
Judy Lynch
 
Posts: 3504
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:31 am

Post » Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:47 pm

All I read was, "This isn't how I play the game, so everything I don't want to use is useless."

Believe it or not, people like to role play in a role playing game. If my character wears light armor, it's because I'm playing a character that WOULD wear light armor. Yes, I know heavy armor offers more protection, but that's not what my character wears.

Make sense?

/thread
User avatar
Sandeep Khatkar
 
Posts: 3364
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:02 am

Post » Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:50 pm

All I read was, "This isn't how I play the game, so everything I don't want to use is useless."

Believe it or not, people like to role play in a role playing game. If my character wears light armor, it's because I'm playing a character that WOULD wear light armor. Yes, I know heavy armor offers more protection, but that's not what my character wears.

Make sense?

/thread



:rock:
User avatar
Madison Poo
 
Posts: 3414
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:09 pm

Post » Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:05 pm

Yes, that's exactly why we're trying to look at numbers and not something as unquantifable as roleplaying. It's nice to see you understand



Yeah, when playing a role-playing game lets focus on the numbers instead of he role-playing. Counter-intuitive don't ya think? Oh, but to you it is more important to balance the statistical probability of the DPS of a lock pick compared with the percent chance at the successful creation of an apple pie when in sneak. :banghead:
:glare:
User avatar
..xX Vin Xx..
 
Posts: 3531
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:33 pm

Post » Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:30 pm

Amusing. Do you believe that Real Time Strategy games are all about strategy as well?
User avatar
Danielle Brown
 
Posts: 3380
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:03 am

Post » Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:40 pm

Amusing. Do you believe that Real Time Strategy games are all about strategy as well?


Huh? What is your point?

EDIT: I know where you are going, quit trying to define/limit the discussion to your parameters of quantification. That is my point.
User avatar
Amie Mccubbing
 
Posts: 3497
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:33 pm

Post » Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:21 pm

Yes.

I guess if you struggle with combat it is.

Yes, that's exactly why we're trying to look at numbers and not something as unquantifable as roleplaying. It's nice to see you understand

I'm not sure you understand the point of RPGs. :shrug: Pretty sure you think this is an RTS.

Yeah, when playing a role-playing game lets focus on the numbers instead of he role-playing. Counter-intuitive don't ya think? Oh, but to you it is more important to balance the statistical probability of the DPS of a lock pick compared with the percent chance at the successful creation of an apple pie when in sneak. :banghead:
:glare:

What is the DPS of a lockpick? Hur, can I get a perk that improves it? I already know what the percent chance of successful creation of an apple pie when in sneak is, but I'd like to get confirmation about the chance of getting the 'heavy, bloated feeling' active effect after eating it. Is there a perk that lets you avoid that?
User avatar
Caroline flitcroft
 
Posts: 3412
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:05 am

Post » Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:16 am

Not sure where to begin.

Armor:

Heavy armor weight does not mean the stealth reduction is there.
It just means you can move faster and stamina will drain as if you wear no armor when sprinting.

Do you honestly think the 50% noise reductin perk in light armor would be nulified with the next perk in that tree, which is "no weight".
Have you even tried to use stealth in heavy armor with that perk?
I have. I can tell you, it does not work.

Light armor: 50% noise reduction, 50% stamina regeneration etc.

As an Archer, 50% stamina reg means I can zoom in and slow time for ALOT longer, as an example.
The noise reduction is apparent.




So much wrong.
Noise reduction is in sneak, not light armor which means you can get it as heavy armor.

50% stamina regeneration is useless because it does not mean much in combat.
Stamina regenerates in 20 sec, which drops 66% in combat to 60sec.
With the perk the stamina regenerates in 13sec, which drops in combat to 40sec.

You don't need it as an archer because the stamina drain on zoom is not much, if you get slow time its meaningless.
The time between shots is often outside combat where the generation is fast enough.

You don't have to spend more perks in heavy because you can cap armor with less perks in juggernaut if you have the best heavy armor.
User avatar
Susan
 
Posts: 3536
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:46 am

Post » Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:38 am

Lockpicking is too easy? Speak for yourself. Maybe this is just my terrible co-ordination coming through, but I can't pick an expert lock to save myself, let alone a master one.

I opened a Master lock without using up any lockpick once :confused: One placement, one press of D and that's it. Archimedes!
And my lockpick skill was... IDK. 20? Lockpicking relies heavily on luck. So, before lockpicking, pray to Talos. Besides, buy a whole lot of lockpicks and you're good to go. So, yeah. Lockpicking perks are outright useless.

Pickpocketing... You say you've never encountered an NPC with pickpocket-able loot that you couldn't have gotten by just killing the NPC instead? Well... yeah. So? I don't see the iussue there. Why should there be special magical loot you can only get from pickpocketing an NPC?

Agreed. Pickpocketing is for role-playing, and the perks are not bad, especially the last two: literally stripping people off

And re smithing: I'm not too far in the game yet, but are you saying that daedric doesn't spawn at all? You have to craft it? Because if not, then I'm really not seeing the problem. Upgrading glass/dragon weapons, especially combined with alchemy and/or enchanting, shouldn't put you at too much of a disadvantage. Besides, how would it make sense if you could learn how to make ebony weapons combined with daedra hearts, without first learning how to make plain ebony weapons?


Which is a problem in and by itself. Daedric weapons are hands down the best weapons in the game, and unlike the armors, are not linked to any sort of class (there is no light weapon and heavy weapon). A thief who uses light armor and dagger would like to use Daedric Dagger, and so are light armored archers. it would be best if Daedric weapons are limited to "heavy" weapons such as swords, maces, and stuff, and they make Dragon weapons consisting of bows and daggers. Both sides would be happy then

Or at least, make Daedric higher than Dragon
User avatar
Jessica Nash
 
Posts: 3424
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:18 pm

Post » Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:00 pm

Lockpicking:

Agreed. I have a few points in Lockpicking that I would love to move elsewhere. I find that even without the master perk I can open a master lock in just a few picks, and I have over 500 in my inventory. What they should have done is have the locking mechanism reset after ever pick breaks, unless you have the perk. Treasure Hunter needs a boost to it as well. Wax Key is counter-intuitive, as they will slow your lockpicking progress, and Quick Hands is useless as well, as time stops when you go to pick a lock.

Pickpocket:

Other than the 100 carry weight perk, I didn't use anything else here. I can see where placing poison on someone could be entertaining, it would just be easier to kill them. Poisoning people in this manner could have been an interesting mechanic in forcing the person to go lay down, making it easier to get past people without killing them. Since I have not gotten high enough, could this allow you to loot all weapons off the target, forcing them to fight hand to hand? That could be quite useful.

Light Armor Vs Heavy Armor

I like having the extra stamina regen on my ranger, but I do not fast travel, so I tend to sprint...a lot. I cannot comment on the top perk, as I rarely get hit and didn't need it.

I will agree that Heavy Armor should have it's weight reduction perk changed to 50%. The stagger thing makes sense though, because a LA wearer is most likely at range, or an assassin, and shouldn't be running straight into combat, unlike a HA wearer. The 1/2 fall damage perk is just dumb.

Smithing:

Yeah, they should have made Dragon Weapons, which are almost as good as Daedric, but lighter in weight. Also, not sure why they have Advanced Armor on the LA side, since it also boosts some HA.
User avatar
Smokey
 
Posts: 3378
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 11:35 pm

Post » Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:06 pm

I really think that Pickpocket and Lockpicking should just be incorporated as a few perk branches in Sneak. I can pick any lock in the game and you'll always have well over 100 lockpicks if you look for them.

As for Light vs. Heavy armor... no, Heavy is not better. Better for damage reduction? Sure. Better for a stealth character? No way. The Dark Brotherhood armor alone makes Light far superior for assassin/thief type characters. With the added stamina regeneration and the 10% chance to completely avoid damage, it is a far better perk tree to invest in for duel dagger/archery users. And yes, Heavy can be silent, but that's a very late game perk. Light will be quieter from the get go, and it only requires level 50 to become completely silent instead of 70 for Heavy (Which would take forever unless you grind with conjuration or something). Not to mention Light looks a lot more appealing for stealth characters.

I think the perk system is a step in the right direction, but they can certainly iron out the imbalances and usefulness of a lot of the perks in the next game. Most of them are great, but honestly I wish you didn't need to invest so many perks into more mundane trees like Smithing and Enchanting just to have the best possible equipment late in the game... cause that's a lot of perks and honestly leveling up Smithing is not very helpful when you can only make high level equipment with perks. It makes leveling those skills kinda pointless... Alchemy was handled a bit better in my opinion because the perks are actually unique. I think they should have let you craft new resources at each leveling interval (25, 50, 75, 100) and the perks were just bonuses like being able to craft them twice as strong, in different colors, etc...
User avatar
James Shaw
 
Posts: 3399
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2007 11:23 pm

Post » Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:55 pm

I don't know what some people expect. Every perk needs to be equally valuable and useful to all play types?

It's like some of you are upset every possible character build doesn't lead to an equally powerful character.



Agreed.
User avatar
Lewis Morel
 
Posts: 3431
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:40 pm

Previous

Return to V - Skyrim