Honest review of Skyrim and why scaling is still awful

Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:04 am

All games get bland and old. Linear games I play once. Twice if it's really good. I've played Oblivion for hundreds of hours over the years with vanilla scaling and I still enjoy the game. I love Half-life 2. I think it's one of the greatest games of all time. I've played it exactly once.

I know leveled quest items is a sore point for many people but please remember you only have so many options:

1. Bethesda gives the item a static level but it's too low. Players complain.
2. Bethesda gives the item a static level but it's too high. Players love it for a few levels. Then they complain that it's OP and makes the game too easy.
3. Bethesda scales the item to the player's level at the time he or she acquires it. Present case. People complain.
4. Bethesda scales the item level along with the player's level and it keeps getting better. Players love it for a few levels before they realize that they have nothing left to look forward to since they already have the best item in the game. People complain.

Pick your poison.


If they're balanced in accordance with the rest of the game's items and the difficulty in acquiring them there wouldn't be any issues. They should be better than everyday items but harder to obtain, of course due to level scaling in general nothing is really hard to obtain save the dragon priest masks.
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Cathrin Hummel
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:13 pm

Hmm good points here OP. BUT...Skyrim needs level scaling to some degree otherwise you wouldn't really be able to free roam which is the biggest aspect in Bethesda games. I believe that the scaling should be limited a bit though. For example after you hit level 30 or so the bandits stop scaling up with you. Or upgrade the bandits with better equipment so it would make sense when they one shot my character, who has maxed legendary steel plate with 25 points to heavy armor on every piece of armor and a 130 health bonus. I also agree to have a certain area where there are extremely high level creatures. And to the ones that think that you'd just surpass them in level, how about this, after you reach their level they start to scale with you? That would keep the game challenging. I agree with the OP on parts but the scaling is necessary to have the free roam in the game.
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Heather M
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:02 am

All games get bland and old. Linear games I play once. Twice if it's really good. I've played Oblivion for hundreds of hours over the years with vanilla scaling and I still enjoy the game. I love Half-life 2. I think it's one of the greatest games of all time. I've played it exactly once.

I know leveled quest items is a sore point for many people but please remember you only have so many options:

1. Bethesda gives the item a static level but it's too low. Players complain. - subjective problem on player's mind.
2. Bethesda gives the item a static level but it's too high. Players love it for a few levels. Then they complain that it's OP and makes the game too easy. subjective problem on player's mind.
3. Bethesda scales the item to the player's level at the time he or she acquires it. Present case. People complain. -problem in game design.
4. Bethesda scales the item level along with the player's level and it keeps getting better. Players love it for a few levels before they realize that they have nothing left to look forward to since they already have the best item in the game. People complain. -problem in game design.

Pick your poison.

I do wish merchant inventories were more or less static with only small variations to simulate the change of supply and demand. I'm sure the developers use leveled lists to prevent players from buying OP items too early in the game, but they could have solved this in other ways.

Well, you can't do something about first two. Someone will think it is OP, someone will think it is not. But the other two are mechanical problems, you do no try to skew reality to address a subjective problem. The players can balance the game for themselves for most of the part.

Getting an item at start and complain its OP, is not a logical complain. There are skills in this game. If you don't have the skill for that item, its effectiveness might be lowered to a not OP state easily. And you don't have the skill at game start now. There is also crafting now which makes sure you don't get an item at its OP state, you get it in its basic state. Smithing perk tree needs special customization(put 50 perks in there!!!) for each type and that would solve most other issues.

In my opinion, if something is rare, the spawn chance must be low, if it is common, the spawn chance must be high. That goes for everything, from loot to creatures. The play time for this game is so high, the chances would balance themselves.
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Etta Hargrave
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:02 am

Level scaling is not a mechanical problem or a game design problem any more than regenerating Magicka is.
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Wayne W
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:46 pm

All I know is that anyone who doesn't share my opinion is wrong.
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carla
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:14 pm

1. Bethesda gives the item a static level but it's too low. Players complain.
2. Bethesda gives the item a static level but it's too high. Players love it for a few levels. Then they complain that it's OP and makes the game too easy.
3. Bethesda scales the item to the player's level at the time he or she acquires it. Present case. People complain.
4. Bethesda scales the item level along with the player's level and it keeps getting better. Players love it for a few levels before they realize that they have nothing left to look forward to since they already have the best item in the game. People complain.



First of all, take a look at points 1 and 2, they are the same thing. You get an item that has fixed stats.

#3 svcks donkey balls because it encourages linear game play eg discourages doing certain quests when you're low level as the rewards are gimped. This is the whole reason to have scaling in the game in the first place is to take away the penalties for going anywhere they want that other games had by putting super high monsters. Now people defend both scaling of monsters ever upwards but artifacts remain scaled downards? Unbelievable.

#4 is acceptable (I prefer static artifact stats but will live with this compromise)....why would they not look forward to getting items that are different? You're assuming every artifact is the same in the game with the same looks and affects? No. That's a stupid argument you've made. And yes, an artifact SHOULD be extremely powerful and useful the entire game. It SHOULD be better than anything you can craft yourself or buy from a vendor. It's an artifact.

Only Bethesda thinks that its artifacts should become worthless in a few levels and the poorest Riften begger merchant should sell things that are infinitely better. How ANYONE defends that choice is beyond me. People are stupid.
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QuinDINGDONGcey
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:28 am

Hmm good points here OP. BUT...Skyrim needs level scaling to some degree otherwise you wouldn't really be able to free roam which is the biggest aspect in Bethesda games. I believe that the scaling should be limited a bit though. For example after you hit level 30 or so the bandits stop scaling up with you. Or upgrade the bandits with better equipment so it would make sense when they one shot my character, who has maxed legendary steel plate with 25 points to heavy armor on every piece of armor and a 130 health bonus. I also agree to have a certain area where there are extremely high level creatures. And to the ones that think that you'd just surpass them in level, how about this, after you reach their level they start to scale with you? That would keep the game challenging. I agree with the OP on parts but the scaling is necessary to have the free roam in the game.


Being free-roaming doesn't require you to be able to explore the entire map as soon as you step out of the tutorial cave.
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Krystal Wilson
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:08 pm

I swear I think Bethesda is incapable of making a rpg with decent character development.


I stopped reading after this

why even buy the game if you think this?
seriously, seems to me the biggest problem here is YOU
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Sarah Edmunds
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:09 am

Well, you can't do something about first two. Someone will think it is OP, someone will think it is not. But the other two are mechanical problems, you do no try to skew reality to address a subjective problem. The players can balance the game for themselves for most of the part.

Getting an item at start and complain its OP, is not a logical complain. There are skills in this game. If you don't have the skill for that item, its effectiveness might be lowered to a not OP state easily. And you don't have the skill at game start now. There is also crafting now which makes sure you don't get an item at its OP state, you get it in its basic state. Smithing perk tree needs special customization(put 50 perks in there!!!) for each type and that would solve most other issues.

In my opinion, if something is rare, the spawn chance must be low, if it is common, the spawn chance must be high. That goes for everything, from loot to creatures. The play time for this game is so high, the chances would balance themselves.

Please don't take this personally, but your division into 'subjective' and 'problem in game design' seems arbitrary to me. I don't think it's correct to say that people who prefer scaled items suffer from a subjective problem while people who prefer static items are justified in holding on to their positions. That might come across as condescending.

Many people like statically leveled quest rewards, probably because there is an intuitive relationship between unique items and fixed stats; but I don't think that scaled quest items are wrong or a poor design choice. They just produce different results which are sometimes better and sometimes worse. The problem with these arguments is that most people (myself included) make them from the 'ideal case': they imagine how it will work ideally and neglect to consider other possibilities.

Static items are wonderful when you receive them at an appropriate level. Should a level 5 player receive a level 25 item? Or a level 25 player a level 5 item? Plenty of people will be fine with this. About 50%. The people who like static items. The other 50% will see the first as being unbalancing and the second as unfair. Who is right? I certainly can't say. That would just be one more opinion.

We can try to avoid that issue by saying that the quest won't be available until the player reaches an appropriate level, but this is pure alchemy: it turns an item scaling problem into a quest scaling problem. You'll just have a different group of people complaining that they should be allowed to try any quest at any level in an open world, whether they can succeed in it or not. People complained that Morrowind was no longer challenging on high levels. Oblivion's level scaling was designed to resolve the complaint. It did. Player's decided they liked Morrowind's system better after all. Were they right the first time they complained or the second? Different mechanics, different results, different complaints. The only constant is a game mechanic's inability to satisfy every type of player.

First of all, take a look at points 1 and 2, they are the same thing. You get an item that has fixed stats.

#3 svcks donkey balls because it encourages linear game play eg discourages doing certain quests when you're low level as the rewards are gimped. This is the whole reason to have scaling in the game in the first place is to take away the penalties for going anywhere they want that other games had by putting super high monsters. Now people defend both scaling of monsters ever upwards but artifacts remain scaled downards? Unbelievable.

#4 is acceptable (I prefer static artifact stats but will live with this compromise)....why would they not look forward to getting items that are different? You're assuming every artifact is the same in the game with the same looks and affects? No. That's a stupid argument you've made. And yes, an artifact SHOULD be extremely powerful and useful the entire game. It SHOULD be better than anything you can craft yourself or buy from a vendor. It's an artifact.

Only Bethesda thinks that its artifacts should become worthless in a few levels and the poorest Riften begger merchant should sell things that are infinitely better. How ANYONE defends that choice is beyond me. People are stupid.

I'm aware that point one and two are the same. I'm sorry if I didn't make the point clear enough.

I'm pretty sure that your argument against point 3 is what vtastek would call a subjective problem. And a very common one, judging by forum posts. If I receive a quest item scaled to my level, is it actually better if I wait until a high level to receive it? Sure the stats will be better, but so will the stats on everything else in the game. The benefits of waiting are neutralized by the increase in challenge. If I actually use the item when it is given to me, it is just as useful to me if I receive it on level 5 as it is if I receive it on level 15.

I guess the answer to this, then, is to do away with level scaling altogether and make everything static. But I'm not convinced that this makes the game less 'linear'.

And your arguments in favor of point four don't work very well for me. Should every quest item I receive be "extremely powerful and useful the entire game"? Should they unbalance the game in favor of the player? How can they be 'extremely powerful' without providing the player with unfair advantages over his opponents? We certainly can't scale the difficulty presented by the enemies upwards to accommodate this change in the character of artifacts. As we've already presupposed, all level scaling is bad. I might agree that unique items should be worth more, and somehow better than non-unique versions of the same item, and that they should possess characteristics players can't easily duplicate themselves, but I don't think making all quest items extremely powerful really solves the problem. Either they become too powerful and the game becomes too easy or the developers just adjust the difficulty upwards to accommodate, in which case they are no longer extremely powerful.

Note that I'm not saying that your preferences are wrong. You are certainly entitled to have them. I have plenty. But it's wrong to assume that your preferences are superior to other preferences.

Sometimes I think that many of the arguments advanced by people made in favor of static design boil down to complaints that the game is just too hard. There are many valid arguments to support static design. Just as there are many valid arguments to support scaled leveling. One is not better than the other. They are simply different tools that produce different results. The trick is determining which aspect of game design to scale, and which to carve in stone. Ideally, developers will take the best features from both methods and combine them in a way which satisfies more people than it annoys. Fallout 3 and Skyrim have already made steps in this direction by using encounter zones.

I confess, the amount of negativity on this forum regarding scaling is somewhat baffling to me, which is why I started investigating the issue. For the record, I prefer a mixture of scaled and static items and creatures, and encounter zones work very well for me, but I seem to spend most of my time defending dynamic level scaling. I guess I just feel bad for the screwdriver, because everyone seems to prefer the hammer.
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GabiiE Liiziiouz
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:51 am

Well..I like the scaling.better then oblivion.And i dont care much about the level scaling.feels like i need more like a tactic to win against the enemy now
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claire ley
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:05 am

I was honestly shocked when I heard they were still trying the leveled approach with Skyrim after the uproar when they did it with Oblivion. Sure, bandits may not be wearing daedric armor anymore but why do the creatures on the roads get more and more dangerous the higher my level is? At level 1, a pack of wolves is realistically dangerous. Naturally, when I was able to kill wolves easily, I figured that the roads would be safe. Imagine my surprise then, when wolves (whatever prefix they have, snow, arctic, black, etc) can now withstand MULTIPLE fireballs. And where did the polar bears come from? I mean, they were always in the wilderness but why are there suddenly tons of them on the roads? What happens to the unarmed people when they want to walk to the nearby farm and get attacked by 2 polar bears and three arctic wolves at the same time? If that was happening in the real world we'd have soldiers and hunters solving the problem. But anyways, I was shocked because after all of the Oblivion mods that they recreated ( I was especially happy about mannequins being included, an almost carbon copy of Reznod's mod) you'd think that they'd adopt one of the most acclaimed mods for Oblivion: OOO. Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul currently has over 375,000 downloads on the Nexus and won Gamespy's Best Mod of the Year award in 2006. One of the biggest and best changes that OOO made was removing level scaling, and with that many people downloading it, it was clearly a popular change. Why Bethesda would make sure that mods allowing you to better display your clothes were included by ignore major updates that transformed Oblvion from a good game to a great game is beyond me. Hopefully there will be a Skyrim equivalent of OOO, because I'm tired of never getting any better than the people around me (not to mention the fact that dragons should be WAY harder to the point of being almost impossible before level 25 or 30. At least mix it up so that i can get attacked by Elder dragons and such at lower levels.

PS: And while this has been beaten to death, the fact that merchant's lists are leveled is ridiculous. Even in the current system you could just show all of the stuff and make the better stuff more expensive. And if they kept the leveled loot, then the item lists would effectively be leveled (in that most people would have to wait for the loot to get better to afford the stuff) but it would be realistic. Even worse is the fact that they made magic lists leveled as well.
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Jessica Thomson
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 2:56 am

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/critical-miss/9245-Critical-Miss-Skyrim-Tales
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Lynette Wilson
 
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Post » Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:47 am

Post limit.
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Flash
 
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