This. The map and compass are fine, but there shouldn't be a YOU ARE HERE sign on it, nor should markers be automatically added to your map if you find a landmark. Markers should only be added by NPC's and manually by the player. The compass shouldn't show any kind of marker either. Oh, and the map should be a 2D paper map

Compass and map are cool, arrows pointing to your target are not:

"If you come across this book on your travels, please bring It to me"

And then you have an arrow pointing to a place you've never been to where the book is mysteriously waiting for you.

You just explained how that's still hand holding. The game pinpoints the location for you with or without the quest marker, and provides no directions for finding it without that. Morrowind gave directions for how to get there and made you use your brain to discover the landmarks they told you about and change your course accordingly.

No, you're wrong. It's a handholding feature that's completely detrimental to the open-world experience.

A simple map and an ordinary compass with no markers on it would suffice. They're just catering for people who don't like open world games and would probably give up on something like Morrowind after 10 minutes. And the worst part of it is, they're designing most quests under the assumption everyone will be using markers, so even if you turn the damn things off you still feel the negative effect of their inclusion a lot of the time.

It would be "reality" in a fantasy world to have a compass and a map in the kind of timeline we have in Tamriel. The other tech on Nirn is more advanced in some instances like the Dwemer ruins. I love my compass and map and I get turned around and lost easily if I don't use them. As I become more familiar with the terrain and landmarks, I look at them less. This is as close to playing an actual role as possible. I'm just waiting for the mod that allows you to turn off the display by hitting a single key since I take screenshots and movies...perfect world then.

:tes:

There's nothing wrong with a compass. There's nothing wrong with a map. Morrowind (which is now the gold standard, apparently) had both.

But Skyrim is this huge, amazing world, and the way fast travel was implemented means that plenty of people won't see even 30% of it. I still think that Morrowind-style fast travel made the most sense and was incredibly immersive. Obviously, you can't have Silt Striders, but you've already got carriages. You could have a chance of being interrupted and having to fight bandits. You could have teleportation in the Colleges.

At the end of the day, though, there was streamlining the game, and increasing immersion. Streamlining won. If you're on PC, get to modding. If you're on the consoles, get used to it.

I just want a decent quest journal... Because I don't immediately do quests. I might take it then get back to it a few hours later; I don't remember the dialogue. When that happens id like to open the quest journal and know what the quest is, but I have to find the npc and converse with them just to get a little information....

...?!

You can make the compass marker textures blank. This means they will still be present on the map, but the compass will not have the magicaly GPS effect. This is what I've done in my game, as well as getting rid of the enemy markers. It's much more fun this way.

I agree that the radiant quest engine being flawed. They tell you "insert dungeon name here" and it is instantly placed on your map (with quest marker pointing right to it). What they don't tell you is what part of the map you can find said place, which region it'd be, which direction you'd find it, nearby landmarks to look for, or resistance to expect. They just say where to fetch/kill/achieve something, and the character instantly knows where it is. It can be any random cave/dungeon/ruin you come across. Especially if it's nowhere near the settlement/city you acquire any given quest. They never specify what type of place you're going or how far off course you're going. Now, I've no issue with these random quests (if only I was given correct directions).

Hell, even in the cities you receive quests without direction. For example, in Windhelm I was asked from some Dunmer shopkeeper to return a ring he bought that he thought was stolen. He never once told me what side of the city the house was or what type of person she was (pauper or affluent). Even if I had to shadow that said person to ascertain the location of residence, I would only tell by the name I see when the cursor is over them. It's like I'm supposed to know it all (or simply rely on a quest marker exclusively).

Quest markers are pretty hard to see as anything other than handholding. On the other hand (hoho) they're completely optional, thus complaining about them is null and void.

The compass/POI etc. is more work to disable, so might not be seen as optional, but I'm of the opinion that it's representing information my character can pick up (smells! subtle changes in wind, humidity etc.) that I as an old fart behind the keyboard can't. It's not hard to ignore if you're playing a character who would get lost easily - just stick to the main paths/signposts!

:lol:
Where did you get that from? Is there some kind of "Anti-pre-Oblivion Statistical Repository" where false statistics about how perfect Oblivion and Skyrim are?

Also learn to actually use something before you pass it aside. I always knew where I was going in Morrowind/Daggerfall/Arena. This wasn't like Skyrim's "Go to and kill ". We actually got told where was. I can recall three times when I got fairly lost:

• Dwemer cube - The one mistake. Hey, let's remove Ai since it can go bad now and then, eh? (A lot more than this system, anyway)
  
• Urshilaku Burial Caverns - An ancient burial cavern hidden from outlanders. It was supposed to be hard to get to.
  
• Cavern of the Incarnate - No one in Vvardenfell knows where the place is. It's lost to time. It was MEANT to be hard to find. Even moreso than the burial cavern.

Not to mention the addition of distant land makes it harder to get lost.


Oh, and let's not forget how ridiculously precise the directions could get. Here's how you go across the street to Caius Cosades, for example:

Old Caius rents a little bed-and-basket just up the hill on the north edge of town. Go out the front door -- NOT the upper door to the terrace -- then right up the stairs, then left at the top of the stairs and down to the end of the street.

"Up the stairs and go left" Would have been more than enough.

"That's that"? no room for discussion eh? Oh well.

If people like the handholding that's fine. Personally, I prefer no info. That's right, no info. You see, I'm not wasting time finding my way around, to me, getting lost is not a barrier to gameplay. It IS gameplay.

It seems to me that a lot of people just wish for pure quest without all the tedious travelling about stuff. One day, Bethesda might just do that. You choose your quest, then you are transported to that location. No need for a landscape.

I love the compass it makes it easier, for me atleast. I usually explore from point to point and just use it to not stray away fom my quest, because that happens alot. Still I think the navigation is better than Oblivion. (Only my opinion)

What you call handholding I consider a godsend. I have a terrible sense of direction and pathfinding in real-life that carries over into video games. Without the compass and map in Skyrim, I'd be lost more often than not.

I never understood why so many people had so much bother with that: I just walked into the ruin and picked it up. Now finding Punabi, on the other hand... that wasn't fun at all. Especially as I did it before I installed the "less aggressive cliffracers" mod. Punabi alone is enough to warrant a compass being present forever more.

I disagree. The map and compass are handholding. They are useful, true, but they are handholding. When I look at an Earth compass, it tells me directions, it doesn't tell me what direction the nearest bandit camp or town is. When I look at an Earth map (a paper map, not GPS) it doesn't tell me where I am all the time. I have to figure this out on my own.

Personally, I dont' use the in-game compass at all, I prefer looking which direction my character's shadow is pointing on the ground. I only use the in-game map to initially plot my next destination. Once that destination has been plotted, I will then use the physical map (the tan map that comes with the game) to figure out where my character is. IT's totally possible if you really take the time to do it.


handholding is not necessarily a bad thing, it's just that gamers like myself prefer not to have our hand held. I think the OP is pretty much just trying to convince him or herself of something. :shrug:



^This above post echoes my thoughts almost exactly.^

For those of you who use a compass and map, this might be something even more helpful for you, if you get stuck, it is decorative as well LOL

http://www.gamebanshee.com/skyrim/mapofskyrim/skyrimmappdf.zip

NEW QUEST!
GO TO JOURNAL!
HIGHLIGHT!
PRESS M, GET INSTANT DIRECTIONS!
FAST TRAVEL FOR QUICK PROFIT$!

Yes. It's hand-holding. Back in the golden age of gaming, you were given VAGUE clues most of the time, and you had to INVESTIGATE to find out the location of X. But since this new gaming generation is so lazy X is just instantly put into your game maps now.

Welcome to streamlining.

I don't see what could be too difficult about getting a basic procedural spoken dialogue thing going. I mean, you need what, eight compass directions (north, north-west, west etc) and some measure of distance. Then you get a basic dialogue option where you can question any NPC you meet about your current highlighted quest. They will respond with either don't know, or some basic direction using either city names, road names (can't be too difficult to make roads have names) or compass direction & distance, approximated. You follow the direction, and ask again. Eventually you just need to look around. Simple.

All this.

The only thing I'd add is that I'd like the 2d map to be more like the ones in the holds instead of a photo and that would reveal items I've seen by uncovering the fog of war that should overlay it at the beginning. Many games I've played (Two Worlds, if I remember correctly) do this and not only evolve to show roads, settlements, etc, but also let me see where I have and haven't been.

God I wish Bethesda would do this. Having to use the local map to see where I haven't been doesn't really help much since I need to walk somewhere to use it instead of seeing on the world map that there's a large section in the SW I haven't been to yet.

Compass and Map is not handholding and is pretty damn useful. Don't let the Morrowind Fanatics trick you into believing that.