The problem isn't level-scaling, the problem is scaled-spawns.



Look at Oblivion. What scales in Oblivion? Ogres, Lichs, Brown Bears, Minotaur Lords, Xivali, Dremora Lords and one other type of ghost. Everything else hits a roof. Anyone disagree with any of those enemies scaling? Again, those are, according to lore, very deadly. Yes Bandits also scaled, yes it was ridiculous, but ignore bandits just for a moment. I'll get back to those.

Look at Fallout 3. What scaled in Fallout 3? Deathclaws. Deathclaws, Super Mutant Overlords and a bunch of DLC enemies. Yes, backwards hillbillies ended up being more powerful than military personnel with laser rifles and power armor, again, ignore them for the moment.

Case and point, what scales in Fallout New Vegas? NCR Ranger Veterans, Brotherhood of Steel Paladins, Deathclaws and some DLC enemies (like 2). Why do these scale? Because the lore of the game says these are flippin' deadly, so it'd sure as hell feel weird if they couldn't leave a dent in you. Anyone disagree with this logic? I hope not.


The problem is that whereas Fallout New Vegas just stuck those enemies where you would expect them, Oblivion shoved them in your face. Where you would once expect to see a timberwolf hanging out, suddenly there's a pair of Minotaur lords there. Imagine if you were playing Fallout New Vegas, and then when you walk up to a location named "Mole Rat hill," suddenly there's no longer molerats there, but friggin' Deathclaws. Imagine if you went to wage war on the Legion, but suddenly instead of Legionnaires, there's friggin' Deathclaw Legionnaires.

That's the exact problem we're talking about with Oblivion and Skyrim. FO:NV did level-scaling perfectly. FO3 did level-scaling perfectly until DLC came out. Once the DLC came out, Broken Steel seemed to replace every spawn in the northern region with a deathclaw spawn and every super mutant spawn with a Super Mutant Overlord spawn. Point Lookout also thought making hillbillies stronger than Jesus Christ + Elvis Presley combined was a great idea, but that was more of a....logic flaw, than anything. They picked the stupidest [censored] enemy to beef up; I think people would welcome a stronger, leveled-enemy for a DLC, but ffs it looks ridiculous if Hillbillies can one-shot you but power-armored soldiers with plasma rifles can't tickle you. BUT BEFORE THOSE DLCS, Fallout 3 was fine.
Oblivion was the worst. EVERY spawn along the roads suddenly had to spawn a Minotaur Lord or an Ogre or a Bear. If you saw a wolf, you thought "holy [censored] [censored], a wolf" and took pictures and sent them to your friends and family to prove you weren't insane. And the Bandits. The bandits were stupid because suddenly everyone and their mother was decked out with full glass armor. What would've made Oblivion perfect? Make the spawns realistic. Don't spawn ogres on the roads just because you know I hang out on the roads; stick them in the flippin' mountains, where they're supposed to be. Don't stick Minotaur Lords on the roads just because you know I'm there. Give them their area of the map where they're supposed to spawn a lot or more frequently. Let wolves and weak bandits continue to spawn here and there.


So what's Skyrim's problem then? Well for one...you know how I would expect Deathclaws to be strong because the lore says so, and thus I want deathclaws to level-scale? You know how I would expect Lichs to level-scale because they're supposed to be powerful? Well, some genius down at Bethesda decided we should make a game that centers around a certain legendary-type of enemy stalking the player. So ta-da, level-scaled dragons being rubbed in your face. It wouldn't matter if dragons were the ONLY enemy that level scales, because unfortunately they're so frequent that you're going to prep for them no matter what. And that's the exact problem with ALL the level-scaled enemies of Skyrim: they're a guarentee. Yes, you might find 12 weakling bandits that you can one-shot throughout this cave, but you know that the bandit that's standing in front of the loot chest is gonna be Chuck-[censored]-Norris. So does it matter? No, not at all, because by the end of the day and the end of the dungeon, you've gotta prep for Chuck-[censored]-Norris.


The moral of the story is, if an enemy is legendary lore-wise, then sure, level-scale it. However, with that, there's a few things to remember:

1) Legendary all-powerful enemies? Generally not all that common. If they were, everyone would be dead. So stop spawning them EVERYWHERE.
2) Bandits and Hillbillies? Probably not legendary all-powerful enemies. Let them rot, don't level-scale them.
3) If an Ogre prefers living in the mountains, what does my level have to do with his habitat? "[censored], the protagonist hit level 45. Let's migrate to every possible climate on the map." Like wtf? No, leave him in his little area. He's allowed to level-scale; he's a [censored] ogre. But he also has to stay in his little mountain range....because he's a [censored] ogre.


Does that make sense?

Please read and comment. TL;DRtards need not apply.

No scaling.

Fixed.

I've offered this retort up on another board and I'll do it here. Generally, in any other game, if you want "legendary" items and gear you had to fight for them. Maybe the game offered a quest chain you had to complete. Maybe you have to fight a tough boss. There's a sense of accomplishment when you complete this task to get your Legendary gear.

An example:

In, say, Final Fantasy 10 (wasn't a big fan - just stick with me here) if you wanted a Legendary weapon you had to fight a decently strong boss. On your way to that boss were mobs that would do anything to stop you in your path.
In Skyrim if you want a Legendary weapon you sit at a whetstone wheel. Then break the game.

The idea about things getting more difficult the further you are from a road is a fun and neat idea. No scaling at all is a terrible idea as it begs the game to become incredibly stale. The game checking your level of improvements and items wouldn't turn the AI into some incredibly hard and overpowered entity. Getting great gear should come with rewards, no? What it does is offers you a challenge. Mobs on the way to that Dragon Priest would become more difficult. The Dragon Priest itself would be boosted...but not to a degree that it can't be beat. In fact, if you can go in with lesser gear and win the day, isn't THAT a reward in and of itself? It would present challenges, a need for strategy and tactics in your fights. As it stands now, I waltz in, hit RT twice and it's done. Blech.

Makes it non linear, which is one of the biggest things going for TES games.

Yeah, it worked wonder with the dungeons of the game !
They are SO not linear !

During the loading screen the game tells me that Ice Trolls are the most ferocious of their kind. Pfft. No they aren't. On master they are 3 shot. Pffffft.

Non linear as in the order you choose to complete things. You don't tend to get stuck in a quest line when you find you are 10 levels below where bethesda decide you need to be to continue. Or, equally as bad, you don't discover you are 10 levels too high for a quest line because you went off and did something else and so have utterly negated the difficulty of the content.

The only real problem with scaling is that unique armor does not scale with you.

The fix is easy:

1. Scale difficulty off of level
2. Game checks level of improvements (Epic, Flawless, Legendary, etc) on gear and weapons and adjusts difficulty, damage output, resistances, armor rating and magic damages accordingly on top of any scaling from level
3. Game checks level of gear and armor rating and adjusts difficulty on top of #2 and #1
4. Game checks level of abilities and perks and further adjusts on top of #3, #2, and #1 (Mainly, this is because having 5/5 Barbarian turns the game into a cakewalk)
5. Game checks the Difficulty setting present (Adept, Expert, Master) and adjusts one last time

The problem isn't level-scaling, the problem is scaled-spawns.



Look at Oblivion. What scales in Oblivion? Ogres, Lichs, Brown Bears, Minotaur Lords, Xivali, Dremora Lords and one other type of ghost. Everything else hits a roof. Anyone disagree with any of those enemies scaling? Again, those are, according to lore, very deadly. Yes Bandits also scaled, yes it was ridiculous, but ignore bandits just for a moment. I'll get back to those.

Look at Fallout 3. What scaled in Fallout 3? Deathclaws. Deathclaws, Super Mutant Overlords and a bunch of DLC enemies. Yes, backwards hillbillies ended up being more powerful than military personnel with laser rifles and power armor, again, ignore them for the moment.

Case and point, what scales in Fallout New Vegas? NCR Ranger Veterans, Brotherhood of Steel Paladins, Deathclaws and some DLC enemies (like 2). Why do these scale? Because the lore of the game says these are flippin' deadly, so it'd sure as hell feel weird if they couldn't leave a dent in you. Anyone disagree with this logic? I hope not.


The problem is that whereas Fallout New Vegas just stuck those enemies where you would expect them, Oblivion shoved them in your face. Where you would once expect to see a timberwolf hanging out, suddenly there's a pair of Minotaur lords there. Imagine if you were playing Fallout New Vegas, and then when you walk up to a location named "Mole Rat hill," suddenly there's no longer molerats there, but friggin' Deathclaws. Imagine if you went to wage war on the Legion, but suddenly instead of Legionnaires, there's friggin' Deathclaw Legionnaires.

That's the exact problem we're talking about with Oblivion and Skyrim. FO:NV did level-scaling perfectly. FO3 did level-scaling perfectly until DLC came out. Once the DLC came out, Broken Steel seemed to replace every spawn in the northern region with a deathclaw spawn and every super mutant spawn with a Super Mutant Overlord spawn. Point Lookout also thought making hillbillies stronger than Jesus Christ + Elvis Presley combined was a great idea, but that was more of a....logic flaw, than anything. They picked the stupidest [censored] enemy to beef up; I think people would welcome a stronger, leveled-enemy for a DLC, but ffs it looks ridiculous if Hillbillies can one-shot you but power-armored soldiers with plasma rifles can't tickle you. BUT BEFORE THOSE DLCS, Fallout 3 was fine.
Oblivion was the worst. EVERY spawn along the roads suddenly had to spawn a Minotaur Lord or an Ogre or a Bear. If you saw a wolf, you thought "holy [censored] [censored], a wolf" and took pictures and sent them to your friends and family to prove you weren't insane. And the Bandits. The bandits were stupid because suddenly everyone and their mother was decked out with full glass armor. What would've made Oblivion perfect? Make the spawns realistic. Don't spawn ogres on the roads just because you know I hang out on the roads; stick them in the flippin' mountains, where they're supposed to be. Don't stick Minotaur Lords on the roads just because you know I'm there. Give them their area of the map where they're supposed to spawn a lot or more frequently. Let wolves and weak bandits continue to spawn here and there.


So what's Skyrim's problem then? Well for one...you know how I would expect Deathclaws to be strong because the lore says so, and thus I want deathclaws to level-scale? You know how I would expect Lichs to level-scale because they're supposed to be powerful? Well, some genius down at Bethesda decided we should make a game that centers around a certain legendary-type of enemy stalking the player. So ta-da, level-scaled dragons being rubbed in your face. It wouldn't matter if dragons were the ONLY enemy that level scales, because unfortunately they're so frequent that you're going to prep for them no matter what. And that's the exact problem with ALL the level-scaled enemies of Skyrim: they're a guarentee. Yes, you might find 12 weakling bandits that you can one-shot throughout this cave, but you know that the bandit that's standing in front of the loot chest is gonna be Chuck-[censored]-Norris. So does it matter? No, not at all, because by the end of the day and the end of the dungeon, you've gotta prep for Chuck-[censored]-Norris.


The moral of the story is, if an enemy is legendary lore-wise, then sure, level-scale it. However, with that, there's a few things to remember:

1) Legendary all-powerful enemies? Generally not all that common. If they were, everyone would be dead. So stop spawning them EVERYWHERE.
2) Bandits and Hillbillies? Probably not legendary all-powerful enemies. Let them rot, don't level-scale them.
3) If an Ogre prefers living in the mountains, what does my level have to do with his habitat? "[censored], the protagonist hit level 45. Let's migrate to every possible climate on the map." Like wtf? No, leave him in his little area. He's allowed to level-scale; he's a [censored] ogre. But he also has to stay in his little mountain range....because he's a [censored] ogre.


Does that make sense?