Are you serious? How much can you define your Revan in KotOR, and how much can you define your Champion of Cyrodiil in Oblivion? How many possible endings does Oblivion have? How many dialogue options with consequences does Oblivion have?

That's because it is not a sandbox world, like GTA or TES. A linear world have a lot of strengths (capable of being epic, capable of cool events, and a great story with lots of choices) while a sandbox world has other strengths (Freedom! Do what you want! Revisit old locations, and continue playing after you finish the game (often).)
You cannot slaughter anyone you want in KotOR, and you can never choose satisfying dialogue options in Oblivion. You might be roleplaying when gathering Cliff Racer plums to get rich in Morrowind, but you're also roleplaying when you're deciding whether or not to regret sending your troops into death in the past in KotOR 2.

Linear and non-linear games are two completely different things with different strengths and different weaknesses.
I'm looking forward to Dragon Age 2 and Skyrim equally, because in DA2 I will get to direct the life of Hawke and see how his relations with his family and friends change over a decade (with the addition of party tactics), and in Skyrim I will get to explore the Nords homeland, be free to loot dungeons/homes/ruins, progress, and save the world from the mighty dragons (with the addition of beautiful, thrilling FPS combat!).

BTW, the day Bethesda add a similar dialogue system like the one in Mass Effect to TES is the day where dialogue in TES actually gets interesting. The voiced PC and cinematic dialogue really hits the spot. A Bethesda+BioWare co-developed game, where BW makes the story and dialogue and Beth makes the free game world with adrenaline-filled combat and high-end graphics? One can always hope.

You're not seriously criticizing KOTOR are you? I mean, come on it's KOTOR! Sure the game is much more linear then an open world game like Morrowind, but the story telling and character development in that game was excellent! ...and the decisions you made in that game had huge implications on your relationships with the other characters, which made certain quests impossible to complete or pick up. So, in a sense, your decisions did matter, and the tree of conversations that could take place was much more complex then say Oblivion's 2 or 3 choice responses. Now I love the Elder Scrolls games to death, and obviously, KOTOR has less freedom, but they are completely different style games. The original KOTOR game is still one of the best RPG's of all time, IMO.

never listen to ign, they are very biased

Also, KOTOR II. While KOTOR I is in every way awesome, it trusts too much in its Big Revelation. KOTOR II is the most versatile game ever, storytelling-wise, if you give enough thought and playthroughs to it. For example, why is there "no ending"? Something more about Kreia. Everything about G0-T0. Some single itty-bitty details that have a huge impact on everything in the game, like why you had to escort a new intelligence droid to either Czerka or Ithorian basemant in the first place. Just what is Exile? And why is Nihilus so [censored] easy to kill even though he is, like, all-powerful - of course there's a reason to it, a very obvious at that, at least on K2's level. About being a true mastermind and ultimately behind EVERYTHING that happens in the game, and all in all every major political movement in the galaxy at that time ... etc. Why some actions by some characters seemed irrational, but are not - everything matches perfectly in the script. Etcetcetcetc...Things you never really got.

KOTORs don't even try to be RPGs with an open world. Or if they try, they shouldn't, because they are not. They're more like linear action games with awesome worlds and storylines. Not in any way comparable to all-you-can-eat-for-$1,95 that TES games offer. Apparently someone likes the mother more than the daughter. It's good I like both! Wait... :shakehead:

Very good points. We can blame the whole KOTOR II fiasco on Lucas Arts. The game was suppose to be so much more, but due to budget constraints, L A forced them to release the game anyway, even though it wasn't done yet.

It also IS so much more as it is. People should just have digged waaaay deeper than they did. Get some more pieces of the puzzle together.

But, yeah, it would've been even more. At least much more playable material would have been there. All in all, they parsed the story to the released version pretty good.

True. You made some very good points. Hopefully, they don't screw up the franchise with the MMO......but I doubt it. I think KOTOR as we know it is history!

Here's how I see it. Bioware makes game for people who like to be told a story. Bethesda makes games for people who like to make up their own stories.


I like to make up my own stories, so Bioware's games feel to confining to me. I have only been able to finish one of them: KotoR 1. I am going to give Dragon Age another shot in the near future. I could only get halfway through it.

But what Bioware does is vastly, infinitely superior to what Obsidian does, in my opinion. I thought KotoR 2 was the worst cRPG I have ever tried to play in my entire life. We play roleplaying games to play as a character, to roleplay that character, to participate in that character's story. KotoR 2 continually forced the player to play some other character. Over and over again I was forced by game developers to abandon the character I was roleplaying and leap into the body of some character I didn't want to play. It got to the point where I couldn't continue. On Nar Shaddaa Obsidian broke me at last: they forced me to play as Atton, as Mira, as Hanharr, as T3-M4, as Mira again and.... well, I couldn't take anymore. I uninstalled Kotor 2 and never played it again.

For a game that calls itself a roleplaying game, that is abysmally wretched game design. I was not at all impressed with their work on Neverwinter Nights 2 either. But I'll say this in their favor: they learned from their mistakes in Kotor 2 and didn't force my player to play as Neeshka this time. I guess what aggravates me is that these people shouldn't need to learn from their mistakes at this late date: they have a long history of making cRPGs. They should have known better.

Obviously the person who compiled the list has a different taste in RPGs to you.

I personally hate Final Fantasy games, and think Zelda is mediocre at best. I rank Bioware on the same level as Bethesda, but that's only because I love a good story. It's all personal preference.

Also, why is this in Morrowind General Discussion and not TES General Discussion?

For me they have kinda screwed it already. No sign of Revan, with timespan placed I-forgot-how-much after him. And he's just coldly written out of it; 'he went to Outer Rim and we never heard about him again', although Chris Avellone's plans for him for Kotor III were no doubt neverbeforeseenly epic. All the reasoning behind the previous KOTORs of Revan's galaxy-wide, united Mandalorian, Jedi, Sith, etc. army against A Far More Greater Threat (=True Sith) - it's all washed down to nothing. It's not KOTOR anymore, it's a money making machine based on the KOTOR era/style/atmosphere/whatever, but it has nothing to do with ingenious original (let alone even greater Obsidian) concept anymore. Only HINTHINT DROIDS MIGHT NOT DIE EVEN IN HUNDREDS OF YEARS OR SO =DDDD = we should see HK and T3, but that will be pretty much it. Nothing there left of the core what made Kotors Kotors. And I don't think the droids will be playing a big part, and it's all the same even if they do, because they have lost it. :/ At least for me. It's great if other people can still like it.

Nothing else to explain this, other than Bioware were envy as hell for Avellone's grandest writing for video games ever, so they just had to flush it all down the toilet. [censored] them.

Skyrim!

This. Divine Divinity, by far greatest RPG ever released. Never sold much though. Still great time waster.

Lol the Irony of this thread: News from 17 of feb 2011 - http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/fullstory.php?id=164349

Epic list.

dont trust IGN, they would put call of duty on the top RPG list :thumbsup:

hence the irony.....