I disagree about the graphics...sort of. Yes they are dated, but with the current tweeks and mods..they can look spectacular...of course you need a beefy machine to handle it. I can't wait until the CK is out to retexture the whole world the right way, then maybe you won't need a monster gaming rig to acheive it. Luckily I have one and am enjoying every minute of crash free high FPS beautiful eyecandy that is Skyrim. So far I figure at least 50% ...not sure...has been retextured by modders (without the CK) and it looks damn good

On some level it's valid but on another level it misses the point. What you get out of something depends on what you put into it. The most profound and moving tv show/movie/play will be lost upon the person who isn't paying attention. If you don't respect the material, you're only cheating yourself.

On the other hand, you have broken play mechanics staring you in the face like making daggers to level smithing. You have one side saying the exploit even existing is a problem and the other side says "So don't do it and the game remains fun." They are irreconcilable viewpoints.

"The game is too easy with good weapons!"

"So just use your fists instead. And try not equipping armor."

That feels unsatisfying. I like the idea of feeling cocky and sliding the difficulty bar to "de sade" to really face some difficult opponents who fight well. But taking a deliberate handicap feels qualitatively different. Probably because you know that you're not facing better opponents but are facing the same old guys in a deliberately crippled fashion.



You do get that stuff in the MMO's but it's not in-character RP but meta-game RP. You create your guild, you deal with the real life people behind the avatars in those games, you have psycho-drama. It won't be within the context of the game world. Gary the Dark Elf won't be [censored]ing about Sarah the Dwarf because of the history of discord between their two factions in-game. It'll be Gary the nerd complaining that Sarah the nerd took his l00t when they were monster-farming and she'll say she earned it. Or some kid can't make the raid time because he's trying to not flunk out this semester and now you're short-handed. Incredibly un-immersive. Everyone is continually aware that they're just playing a stupid game and wasting time that should probably be better-spent doing something else. And incidentally, that's how I justify single-player games. I can put 100 hours into Skyrim over a few months and there will be an end, I can eventually walk away and enjoy my life. You can't walk away from an MMO because there's no end. You can't abandon your buddies in your guild! But you're painfully aware you're playing a game, just like bad actors make you painfully aware you're watching a movie.

It actually breaks immersion because I keep wanting to check the forums to make sure I'm not backing myself into a corner. For example, I didn't know about werewolves until I'd done the companion mission where I saw my buddy wolf out. Seemed pretty cool and I became a werewolf in short order. Only afterward do I see that the whole wolf thing is pretty gimped and sadly not worth the effort. Do I go back to a previous save point and avoid that? I'd have to avoid the whole Companion plot then.

I accidentally got on the first mission for the Thieve's guild. My first character is a noble Nord who doesn't go fort that sort of thing. I found my Blade contact in the sewer and left the city but I've still got the option for starting the guild quest cluttering my screen.

In another example, I found the dead guy in the cave I didn't know I was looking for. Got the misc. mission pop up telling me to tell his family. Only after consulting the web did I find out I likely would have gotten the request to look for the guy if I spoke with the family first. And the dialogues are bugged so I'll never have the option of telling them where I found the body.

So rather than making the world feel bigger and more real, it just brings me back to being conscious I'm playing a game. It's watching a marionette show and bad lighting drawing everyone's attention to the strings so that the puppets never truly feel alive.

I get what you're saying, perhaps I phrased it wrong. I am honestly impressed with the game and I love it. The gameplay is top-notch, at least in my eyes...I'm just happy that I've finally found a game that holds my interest again.

Certainly- if dialogue options are bugged as a result, then that's a whole different story and I would agree with you wholeheartedly. It seems you don't want to be funneled into quest lines and that's understandable. About the Thieves Guild quest line- maybe an ability to delete quests would take care of that. I guess we'll see if it happens.

It's hard to say what I want because I think you can have a lot breadth or depth or some breadth and depth but you can't max both. And every compromise made one way or the other will tick people off.

The thing that does bother me generally is when choice is taken away like you end up locked into a faction quest that changes how the entire game will play for you, I.e. Escape Velocity. I can remove the wolf form from my character so I'm not completely locked in.

I'm not rolling in cash yet so for some followers to remain with high prices is pretty cool. Gives me something to work towards.

What I'm surprised about is how little armor and weapons are in the game. While there are many bad choices, I wonder if limited good choices won't just make most characters look the same. Fallout 3 didn't have a lot of options ultimately, everyone just kind of wound up looking the same.

The solution to your problem is simple.


Read the books. It's all in there. There is direct relation to many of the books that increase this so called immersion. Next time your on a journey...you'll remember the story as your dungeon hopping.

I was reading some book about the Legendary Red Eagle...that I stole from a Merchant shop.... next thing I know, a couple days later, I'm in a dungeon experiencing that very Red Eagle quest....

Ah, a fellow Morrowind fan.

You must be a Morrowind fan boy Oblivion bashing famebait troll, amiright?

(make sure your sarcasm detectors are working before responding, please)

....and this is why I play MMOs "solo". Guild drama is no way to live. :tongue:


(also, re: "painfully aware you're playing a game".... this is that immersion thing again, isn't it? I guess this is one of the things that colors my response to various games - I'm basically always aware that I'm playing a game, so the things that bother people by "taking you out" of the game? Don't generally notice them. Because, after all, I'm playing a game - why would noticing that fact mean anything? :shrug:)

I've got the kindle compilation of the books for my phone. Haven't had much chance to read them yet. That's for reading over lunch. If I'm home with the game I should be playing it.

Ok what I mean by playing a game is like when I walk away from an attacker and he stops at an arbitrary line. When I face a low bandit and can tank his attack without defending myself and he continues to attack and yell like an automation. this is like seeing the zipper on the monster suit.

I can have the same problem With fiction. I know the writer is making it up but I can believe in the motives and emotions of the character as if she were real and the writer only a biographer. But then things will happen that make it clear a writer is on board. She does things that move the plot on but in ways that don't feel true to who she is. Out of character moments. It makes me aware that I'm reading a story.

Television tends to be the worst about this because of the number of writers involved but long-running book series can also suffer from creator decay.

Good post. I agree mostly with the last part where the op writes about the lack of impact that you get by completing quests for people. If i help people and i have the title of Thane in a city, i would expect that to have an impact around town. Now its just like thanks, here is your money. I think they got it mostly right in New Vegas. I could actually see the impact of my actions around the Mojave. I like the fact that all the work i have done was at least noticeable in the end where all my friends came to help me in the last fight. While i think this is a great game which i am enjoying a lot. Still it doesn't give me a feeling of a true epic. Like when i first played FF7 on Playstation or Ocarina of time on the N64 (anyone who hasn't played these is barking mad btw). It seems most games of today are first designed for the eyes then after for the brain. But tuning down the story and character tweaking etc. is common in any popular franchise these days. Look what they did to the FF series, HOMM series, Baldur's Gate became Dragon Age and the list goes on. I guess its better to get used to tuning our own brains down to play these games and definetly lower our expectations.

There is that problem with expense. You can't afford to be as experimental when so much money is on the line. But with the kind of cash Betheada is raking in, I wonder I'd they might be able to do some smallish experimental games to test out new ideas to incorporate into the next Elder Scrolls game.

The talk of hybrid dialogues should be doable in Skyrim as a modder proof of concept. I like the improved UI mockups I've seen here.

The thing that would make me sad is if they settle into being EA and just releasing the same game with a new number.