Yeah my bad. For lower levels you have a point, it can be very rough. Especially if you take the resistance bug into account.

Okay my character is a Heavy Armor/Two Handed with bow and sneak around 40. Level 17 with 230 health and something like 140 Stamina. Exquisite Steel Armor and Superior Falmer Bow. No enchantments. A few poisons and potions. Basically what I think you might get without exploiting. Lydia with similar armor and weapons (though she is one handed and a shield).

Hearing all this "stuff" about how easy Master was I just bumped my character up to Master from Expert.

And I am I just have to say all this "stuff" about Master being easy appears to be complete and utter nonsense!

I just went into a dungeon with a Fire Mage and an Apprentice Storm Mage. The Fire Mage alone will kill my character in a matter of a couple of seconds. The only way I could make a dent in them is to hide in a corner let them beat up on Lydia (I felt like a jerk for that) and then shoot them in the back with a poisoned arrow as they are walking away (up to a ledge I where I can't shoot them). Lydia then gets better and they come out beat her up, and walk away. Then I shoot keep hiding and repeat. And just hope they don't see my character, because if they do then my character is dead in about two seconds. So I just hope they continue unrealistically and inexplicably ignore Lydia once her health gets low. So after about 45 minutes of abusing Lydia in that way, which then constantly leaving her alive for no apparent reason, I was still not able to kill them. I got the Fire mage down to about half health but that was all. Maybe in about three hours of doing the exact same thing I might be able to kill them if I'm lucky and reload enough. Is that supposed to be fun?

Even if someone where twice as skilled as me I can't see how they could defeat them in any reasonable way.

So again, from my own personal experience all this talk about Master being super easy even without using in game features like smithing and alchemy seems to me to be complete nonsense. And smithing doesn't help one little bit in this case.

I can't think of any tactic that could have worked here, aside from the hide in a corner, let them abuse my housecarl, and just continually snipe at them for over an hour and if they see me reload. How is that fun?

The only way Master can be easy it seems to me, is if you only fight skeevers, mudcrabs and weak bandits until you get to very high levels.

But I could be missing something. If I am please let me know, otherwise I can't believe anyone would find Master easy or fun at level 17.

Master is too easy, even without smithing, enchanting or any magic.

Now, master with a 2 handed weapon would be effin hard.

Edit: Marksmen, 1 handed weapon, and shield with light armor is all you need to realize that master isn't hard at all. Granted that leaves out mages and barbarian types, but I don't play those.

i used to make jokes about an arrow to the knee to
then i? took a mace to the face...

With all due respect did you read what I said right above your post (post 27)? With a Fire Mage a Shield vs 2 Handed would make zero difference. Neither would a bow, where I have about level 40 skill at level 17. None of that matters with a fire mage. So with all due respect, your post makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to me.

So how is the scenario I described above "too easy"? I really want to know. Would you just turn and run? That seems to be the only reasonable choice at Master. Is that why you think it's too easy on Master, because you run from any difficult enemy. I really would like to know.

Is abusing your follower, sneaking and sniping for hours too easy? Or how would you have handled that with my character stats.

Why are people always just saying Master is "too easy" but never say why or how?

Pretty much all of them believe in the FPS principle: that is, if you mess up just a little, you should instantly die. And they probably die a LOT in the mid level range when high level mages start appearing, they just don't think dying means the game is hard.

That must be the case. It seems to me that the only way to force your self to believe that Master is not hard against something like a Fire Mage or a Spriggan Matriarch is to simply run away. Since the level is locked a the time you enter then you can come back 20 level later and think it is easy.

So maybe all these people that think Master is so easy simply run away from all challenges?

I play 2H on master, its actually pretty easy but i'm only 42 on that character.

I do have 60 enchanting however. The weapon drains stamina and I have a few +2hand damage enchants.

I don't die all the time. I rarely die. I'm not invincible and I get one shotted lots of times because I don't exploit the game, and I impose levels of restrictions on my character.
I still one or 2 shot mages every time, often times before they fire at me, and even if they do, the marksmen slow time perk allows for easy dodging. I personally don't see how you guys aren't seeing this from my perspective unless you're using self restrictions against dragon shouts and potions.

Sure I have to pop 2 potions mid dragon stream, esp after 1.2, and sure a dragon will still eat me sometimes in a matter of seconds if I go melee on it, but the bow is powerful, and i buy armor/circlets to make my bow better.
I rarely even remember to use the thousands of poisons that I accumulate.

The game mechanics are just too basic for it to be easy unless they put a character like mine in a 4x4 room with no escape and a dragon priest or something. Nothing matches my skill with a bow in this game unless it gets me by surprise or unprepared with potions, everything else dies before it gets to me.

Edit: I just put the PISE mod on here a few days ago, which makes enemies use potions and increases spawns by 50% and it is fairly close to how I like the game. It still needs something extra though, to make it a fully engaging experience.

for me i expect to die on occasion. if i cant beat something after 3 times in a row i consider it hard (exception being old school boss battles on snes and genesis) if i have trouble beating the same monster the second time i encounter it i then consider it hard. however, that doesnt mean i lower the difficulty that just means that im more careful against it next time. i might do a sneak attack first or use frenzy and have his allies whittle his health down or use poisons etc. thats just typical learning and adapting and i havent found anythign in this game that cant be adapted to. dragons become so easy to kill after while because you learn how to fight them that alduin turned into one of the easiest fights of the game. i also didnt have any problems with my orc character but i was also using a companion and summons so that might have made the difference. the only character i had to lower to expert was my pure destruction mage.

@ daggerfallftw............is that mod on nexus? ill have to check that out i didnt think they had any esp mods out yet.

@Savlian

Probably not going to like half of what I say, but you wanted to know what you're missing.

In the circumstances you describe, I'd say magic resistance.

I play a Breton, which admitidly is a significant leg up. I knew my biggest weakness as a two hander would be mages and planned appropriately.

I also intentionally picked up Alteration for it's magic resistance perks as well. There are few more non-exploity ways to get your magic resistance up for free.

If I picked neither a Breton or Alteration, I probably would have picked up Alchemy and brewed up the best resistance potions I could.

I also feel you slightly favored health too much. I had a 50/50 split in health/stamina up until level 20, then boosted magic up 50 points, and gone back to 50/50. What I recognised through experience was on the tougher fights, it didnt matter how much health I had, but what did matter was how many power attacks I could get off before having to retreat and recharge via restoration. Power attack staggers were basically a form of damage avoidance.

Basically, heavy armor damage resistance got me through the bulk easy mob damage, but power attacks, magic resistance and tactics would get me through the tougher mobs.

I also think archery, or sharing any two combat skills is a trap. Combat skills fight each other for perks and skill points heavily. Every time you draw your bow, your're basically weakening your two handed skill, especially in the early levels. If you think about how level scaling works in the game, you'll understand why this can become an issue.

I'm waiting for a huge OOO style mod to fix the game. OOO turned oblivion into an entirely different and much more enjoyable game.

I'm playing at master now, but on lower levels only on adept.
The game gets easier and easier and you need master difficulty at 50+ just to keep a good enough balance.

I've played on master from the beginning and it was a steep learning curve after lvl 15 or so.

I enjoy it and it made me learn to be cautious.I have also learned to better use my melee skills more effectively to enhance my survivability.

Dungeons and caves are much more of a big deal for me now than in other games and i have no problem backing out of fights i cant win.

I'm only up to level 20 now and have no really uber items and really enjoying the challenge and wouldnt play on ay other difficulty level as i've got used to the game world as it is now.

Most of the enemies you face are very easy, because they don't level up with you. The boss level enemies that do level up and even have a bigger level than you, will be a challenge unless you get daedric smithing very early on in the game. Take this NPC called 'Skinner' as an example. Every other silver hand in the entire place go down without a problem. But even when you use berserk rage (double damage, half damage taken) he will 3-4 hit kill you and you must slash him over 40 times. The master difficulty is extremely strangely done.. I wanted everything to be a challenge, not most of things to be so easy it feels like novice difficulty and a select few enemies so hard they are impossible without potion spamming.

(or stealth, stealth changes everything..)
My dagger only character that uses smithed daggers to ensure a OHK-backstab, spent only points on stamina and used no armor at all didn't find a challenge anywhere. Boss level enemies don't even see me coming and they are dead. If they see me, I run and go back once they lose sight and try to backstab again. Obviously high-profile combat and dragons and such would be impossible with this stealth char.

Uh huh. I parked my level 40 Mage. He's a bit OP and I am doing a two handed heavy armor mage tank now. At level 10 I have the preliminaries done. I am about to level smithing some more and I plan a 100 Conjuror 100 Enchanter 100 Smithing. I basically want to role with the Dremora Lords as an equal. That may not be possible but hey.

I defeated the skinneer by going werewolf form and chain fearin the room. Figured they gave me this awesome ability, that room was about as appropriate as it would get to use it.

Its not that hard. I play expert usually but i started a dead is dead on master and im up to lvl 10. my blacksmith is 40 and my gear is as crafted as it can be at that lvl. The trick is being really careful, my character is a ranger and I dont ever rush anywhere. Im always sneaking in dungeons so i can get the sneak attack bonus. If i get detected let your follower tank. You gotta be extra careful. evade as many hits as possible. Use your surroundings, choke points high ground etc and sometimes you just gotta RUN

If you are playing master without exploits you need to fight without being hit. It is possible, but requires a different approach for 2h, 1h +shield and dual wield enemies. You can even take down multiple mobs without being hit, just takes practice

I'm curious. Do those that say master is easy use a companion and/or conjure a pet?

After smithing a bit I bumped up the difficulty to Expert, currently level 43. I mainly sneak around and backstab but I first worked up 1h, block, restoration, and light armor. I don't use companions or conjured pets. My smithing and enchanting are in the 70's. Sure I can 1 hit a lot of targets from the shadows but when things go south I switch to 1h/shield. Using a legendary chillrend (I went up the left side of smithing). At this point it gets a little rough, if I don't block at the right times I will die in 2 to 4 hits. It takes my character at least 6-8 power attacks to kill higher tiered enemies. Higher tired casters can take me in about 2 hits with big spells and it still can take 3-4 power attacks to kill them.

Because far to many games in todays market are complete trash in the difficulty department. It is nice to finaly have a game that I can die in again. But, once you hit roughly level 30-35ish the difficluty drops off pretty drasticly, and you can almost forget you are on master difficulty right up untill the point you get insta-gibbed by some random enemy you let your gaurd down to.

On a side note, because this thread is filled with, what I assume to be "non-casual" gamers. If you are anything like me, pick up Super Meat Boy. It brings me back to the good old days of accual "tough" platformers. You will be pleased.

I started with adept and moved from expert to master after I got 100 enchanting and smithing and 70 block. Otherwise it would be a little bit to easy. I use only fur armor/no boots (and a horned steel helmet for optical reasons) and a fur shield. One of my one-handed elven swords (glass, Daedra pp. are too ugly) has 168 damage (enchanted with additional 29 fire damage and paralyse) when I wear my three "fortify one-handed" items, but normally I use another elven sword with 134 damage and just a paralyse enchant. That's far from what you could get with alchemy in combination but I don't like to yield for flowers and such (my alchemy is at 26). Mages are a pest momentarily but they will be victims of my revenge after the next patch (hopefully). I have 315 health (with enchants) and often get my guts ripped with one or two mighty attacks or arrows from really strong opponents (some Falmer, Dwemer machines and some high-ranking Draugr for example, some insects and some bandit archers), if my block is not well timed. That's life. :dance: Stand up and try again. I don't use magic except restoration and I find only one cry exceptionally useful, it's Iceform (or what it may be called in English) which frosted all enemies in front of you. Really a live saver.

What I like by far the most in TES games, is to explore dungeons and fight my way through. I don't like to fight dragons, run around in the settlements, talk to people or craft. Therefore I prefer to be as long as possible in the dungeons, I like the fights and don't mind my bloody deaths. That's the reason for master level.

It's called steed stone + dodging, I also have a Nord 2h on Master and find it challenging but not impossible.

I'm on level 30. I play on master mostly. I had to drop to expert for one fight. It is just a matter of how you play. I kept getting smashed in toe to toe combat so I started using sneak and strategy using the terrain. I haven't used any exploits and I'm wearing light armor with no shield and bare feet. My most powerful summon is a fire attronach so far. Even giants aren't that hard. You just need to get up on something high or run into someplace too small for them to follow you into and shoot bows from the entrance. I wouldn't try to kill one with a sword. I'd get squashed. If you are going to play some one who uses swords/axes without using sneak and summons and ranged attacks then yes you would probably need to keep the level on the middle level. Fighters have a much harder time, they need the lower difficulty. Sneaks and magic users need a higher difficulty to keep it challenging, the idea with those is not to get hit in the first place.

I've been playing on master since the beginning, now I'm at level 24 and 52 hours in. I've barely touched the main quest and some of the questlines (mainly the Companions), haven't chosen Legion or Stormcloaks yet; most of my time has been spent clearing out dungeons and roaming the wilds. I play as a one-handed+shield fighter, with only a hint of restoration (to heal in-between fights basically). I try not to use too many poitions per fight, only one or two when I really need them. Haven't touched enchanting, smithing, alchemy or what have you.

The beginning was pretty easy, up until level 10 or so I didn't really have many problems. Then things started ramping up in difficulty slowly, but in the early twenties, it seems to balance itself out again. My biggest problem are two-handed fighters, that can usually one-shot me if I'm not careful or otherwise take out 85-90% of my health in one hit. The key is to stay on the move, blocking the weaker attacks and moving out of the way of the more powerful ones. (the shield perk which slows down time when blocking a power attack is really helpful here) Then it's just a matter of taking them out slowly but surely. Shield wielding enemies are always easier, while mages are a pain but still doable (or used to be, see below). I've used a companion only once so far and that was when I had to clear our two vampire caves around Morthal and Solitude. It was a fight of 4v1 and even with one more guy I had trouble doing it.

Otherwise, everything is looking good. I wouldn't say the game is any more challenging than on the lower levels, mobs just hit much harder and have more health. That's artificial scaling up of difficulty, without any real effort. Now...if enemies were actually smarter, then it would have been a real treat. My only gripe is that, with magic resistance being broken at the moment, mages just rip through me in three hits. (you can imagine my surprise, as a Nord, when a frost-based mage wiped the floor with me) Here's to hoping the 1.3 patch comes soon.