I seriously don't understand the whole "balance isn't for single player games" argument. In a game like this, SOME balance should be expected.

The whole draw of the TES series is freedom and we've been getting a whole lot less of it with each installment. Without a proper balance you will pretty much be forced to play a specific way in order to succeed. That will kill any replayability factor if every time you start a new game you end up building the same character.

Just look at other single player games (not video games.) Take jigsaw puzzles. If you've been doing them for a while, one with 100 pieces isn't going to challenge you enough to be interesting. You're going to start looking for ones with more pieces to up the difficulty. Single player video games are no different - most people are going to want enough difficulty to challenge them. And since there are multiple ways to play games like RPGs, there are multiple difficulty curves. Ideally these difficulty curves should match, roughly, otherwise some play styles are going to end up with too much difficulty, or not enough. If playing as a dual wielder completely trivializes the combat, there's no way to get a satisfying level of difficulty from that play style, it becomes a 100 piece jigsaw puzzle. And yeah, you can gimp your character, but that means carving out an entire section of the game from the challenge - stats and equipment are what set RPGs apart from shooters. I want to be just as challenged by the character leveling system as by the combat itself - in fact I've come across a lot of people that want RPGs, even FPSRPGs, to minimize the importance of shooter skills when playing, which basically means making stat and gear choices the only source of challenge available.

[censored] noob, play magic then tell. Its the WEAKEST of all Craprim.

Ok in this thread is 3 types of people. One type that says destuction is OP because of what the OP states, another group says its under powered because of what the OP states. Both groups of people actually agree but dont know it because it is a case of glass half full/half empty, and then theres the final group of people who think theres absolutely nothing wrong at all despite them being the minority in this thread.

Groups A and B are arguing over semantics while group C is saything dont fix what isnt broken dispite the fact that stuff is actually broken.

It's easy to get through fights because of the 100% chance to stun pretty much anything. It's tedious though because of the pathetic damage compared to any other combat discipline. And the magicka costs at high levels are absurd, they can only be overcome through high level enchanting (to the point that it feels like an exploit). All told though, I'm having a lot of fun with my mage, the flaws seem to cancel each other out. At level 43 on master, the fights are tough but doable, whereas with my archer and my dual wielder, they're mostly one shot kill fests. With some changes though it could be a lot more interesting.

The problem here is a bit different. Imagine that in COD, all m-4s are like mini-nukes. So what you're suggesting is: "Don't like m-4 mini-nukes? Don't use them! Use AK-47!"

Wow, guys, you should be proud of yourselves.

PS: "Ack, the logic on these boards is mind numbing sometimes."

As others have said the choice is yours.

The main problem about free spells is that ITS NOT FUN, not that its unfair.

Guide in my signature on how to use enchanting for these things without getting free spells. Pretty easy, use archmage robes, and don't use fortify enchantments over 25% and you'll reduce magicka cost by 95%, which is perfect.
6% to 4% is the goldilocks zone.

So, you're trying to hide an important factor to win this argument. The stagger effect.

My problem isn't with 100% destruction reduction. It's with 100% dest reduction + stagger effect, so I can kill bosses without being harmed.

How can this be fun?!

I don't think this is exactly right.

If you do nothing but max perk your ability thats purposely put there for your class and become OP thats not that persons fault. There should still be challenges

That said.....I don't want the difficulty to change as it is b/c for me it's perfect. I'm not a big threat but with a little cunning I get the job done.

I don't know what the solution is....maybe an even bigger difficulty slider which makes even higher levels take notice.

Or maybe make NPCs that are really high levels that only spawn when you hit level 40 or something.......I dunno.

But telling someone to not play a mage or not play as the game was intended b/c they are OP is not logical.

If that was the case, tall ppl wouldn't be allowed to play basketball. People would have said you can't use tall ppl b/c it makes the game too easy for said team.

Well, that is exactly what I think. They are in fact not worried with the main theme of this thread: magic system is not well designed. They are just worried in discussing if magic is OP or not and if other classes are more OP than mages

Overpowered? Not Destruction. It's rather weak actually. Sure the stagger effect might be good, but there is something seriously wrong if you need a 100% cost reduction for it to be useful.
How I believe it should be fixed: Add a small skill based scaling of the spelldamage and have the Novice-Master Destruction perks have a 20% damage bonus to all destruction spells. Why? 1: Spells aren't as fast as melee unless you use the novice spells(such as Flames, which is very weak), 2: They don't get sneak bonuses(as far I have noticed) like bows and 3: You would be reguired to put a lot of levels onto magica to effectively wield it(unless you take the 100% reduction thing, which wouldn't be necessary if it was stronger),

Whether or not someone agrees with you about it not being well designed doesn't help anybody.

If you want to use magic and A) Not run out of magicka immediately, and B) not have free spell casting, there are many of us who can help you achieve that, and its actually pretty easy.

It doesn't matter if we agree with you. What are you going to do about it? Balls in your court.

1h,2h and archery; As you skill up, the more damage weapons deal, as you pick the perks you start to deal more damage, as you enchant your gear with improved archery,1h, 2h, you increase your output again.
Magic; You skill up, you do the same [censored] 8dps with firespam, no matter skill in 100 or 15, you pick perks and what? -you only start to be able to use them, if without perks you are oom in 2 casts, you enchant your gear, so spells cost less and you can actually use the destro/conj whatever.


I've played both physical and magic side, i had a couple 1h/2h/arch characters without even touching enchanting and smithing, and still doing ok in master level. Then i started to make a pure mage, only option to survive in 35+ is enchnating your gear with less cost spells, so i can take a dragon with 150 firebolts lol. Even if its free, it's stupid damage compared to unenchanted physical side, and there's NO WAY to increase and magic damage other than firing a poisoned arrow. Only option to increase damage is using a physical attack...

Free casting is an exploit yes, but its currently only way to play in high levels where you are supposed to use same spell like 5-10 times to take an enemy. Considering enemy casters constatly spamming you with those spell, they have endless mana pool aswell.
I think this will change in next patches once done with major performance issues. Magic will scale with your skill and perks will actually increase the output with changes, this i'm sure.

I think enchnating should also change. You should be able to enchant your gear for additional damage along with less mana cost, while capping less mana cost at a percentage. This way physical and magic sides would be balanced.

Sorry, but I can't run away from the fact that my dual wield spells always stagger.

If I don't use dual wield, then magic system is underpowered. So basically, I can't have a balanced well designed magic system in this game.

I don't understand this mentality.

This is a single player game. If you don't like something, don't use it. It doesn't have to be nerfed for everyone.

Personally I won't use this because I don't want it to break the game.

If this was an MP game, then I'd completely agree with you.

Correct. In this thread. Millions of ppl are playing this game that aren't on these boards that are enjoying it. I think it's safe to say that in this day in age, if someone wants to complain....they will. So it's not like millions of 20 year olds don't know how to access the internet.

Now think about that for a second. If all those ppl are enjoying the game maybe it's not broke.

If half say that mage are OP and the other half say it's UP.....then it's conflicting. It's not broke. It's working. Everyone is playing a different way and ppl are getting different results.

Do I think they should make it more difficult at higher levels for those who want it? Yes.

But don't overhaul the system for those of us who are enjoying the sweet spot for the time being.

No need to apologize.. your choice doesn't affect anybody other than yourself.

Bethesda isn't going to revamp how it works, you know this by now. There many things in this game that even a vast majority of players agree on should be changed that Bethesda will not change. Like deleting the lockpicking perk tree.

YOU can fix this yourself come January with the CK, or changing up your playstyle by re-enchanting to whichever amount of mana usage you choose, or just stop using it entirely. Those are your options dude, nobodies gonna judge you.

I enjoy this game a lot, that's why I care about fixing the things that don't work so well. It's also fun trying to figure out how to fix them - game design can be as much fun as playing. I can't wait until the CK comes out so I can start tweaking things the way I think they should be. With the exception of destruction magic leveled damage scaling - from my experience with the GECK, fixing that is going to be a tedious pain in the rear, and even more so once you have to maintain compatibility with spell adding mods like Midas Spells of Aurum. So I'd love it if Bethesda tackled that one. Plus I'm sure a lot of people that feel the same about destruction magic's faults are playing on consoles, so they're stuck with what Bethesda decides to do.

Ahaha. So everyone pointed problems in the "magic system", and (probably you didn't noticed it) we are agreeing on these points (bad scaling, infinite stagger + 100% destruction reduction makes the game boring and uninteresting) and you still say the system is not broken??

I don't really care if archery or melee do more dmg. I don't care which is the most OP. I am only saying that "100% destruction reduction + stagger" is just stupid and not funny at all.

Again if you want to obliterate every enemy, just reduce the game difficulty in settings. In my case, the problem is a bit different, I put any difficulty lvl in settings, and still feel OP because I can use infinite stagger.

Most people who are not happy with skyrim's system don't go to the internet to post. They just stop playing and make fun of Beth in the future. And that worries me

And here we have it. The whole argument, all of these arguments in a nutshell.

OP refuses to take responsibility for his choices, complains about the consequences, and is demanding the whole game be rebalanced to suit his personal preferences, and screw everyone else.

No thanks.

People say that you should be able to play how you want to. Well, I want to play as a mage on master and have fun. I mean, that's not too much to ask is it? Isn't the goal of a game, any game really, to allow its players to have fun? And if it doesn't do that, isn't it safe to say that the game fails at least partly? Well, when 1/3 of the playstyles in the game aren't fun, that's a pretty big issue. Well, let me clarify: 1/4 of the damage types in the game aren't fun. Still a pretty big issue.

When 1/4 of the ways to kill things isn't fun, and killing things make up the large majority of the game, something should be done to fix it. Having to fire 15-20 pea-shooter incinerates or ice spears at enemies to kill them, which is apparently "justified" because they can't attack you back, is not fun. Combine that with the fact that the majority of Skyrim players are on consoles and can't take advantage of the CK or mods, and then it becomes an intolerable issue. WHICH UNDOUBTEDLY WARRANTS A FIX. Otherwise you're just fooling yourself.

The magic system in this game is terrible. The magic reduction is almost needed to cast the higher level spells. Also the destruction school hardly dishes out any damage at all. The higher level spells are not as effective. The stagger effect should be percent based.

Now with all of that out of the way. There is a total lack of spell types and options in this game. There is no way to customize your spell weavers with spell creation. The system in this game is underpowered not overpowered. To have the upper level spells you almost have to have the magic reduction otherwise you might only be able to cast about one to three times, then your magic is gone. If this system gets stripped down anymore we will not have a magic system at all.