What spoilers? I didn't really have any?

A fascinating book I haven't seen yet. But I think it still leaves room for the expansion idea. Maybe the brass god can still be found and allowed to fullfil its function (or maybe the player would prevent that. Or maybe it could be reversed and all the Dwemer would pop back. I think it has potential as an epic quest.

It's not lost. It was a key McGuffin of Daggerfall.

Merari, you're obviously very knowledgeable about lore, and I appreciate your posts--they're always worth reading. That being said, I disagree on this issue. The following is just my opinion, obviously, and isn't meant to be an argument so much as an explanation of a different point of view.

First, the Imperial Library is a fan-fiction site. Yes, it has at least one (contract) writer who was very influential in Morrowind, and who provided some great content. But there are certainly articles at IL that contradict in-game details, and occasionally each other. That doesn't mean that anything there is necessarily wrong, but it isn't necessarily canon either, IMO.

It's true that most of the Disappearance of the Dwarves article is derived from Morrowind. I hunted down everything I could find on the topic, talked to Yagrum, Baladas, Divayth, and did the Trebonius quest (with the amusing resolution). But there are 2 very big flaws in the DoD summary: the in-game interaction of both Vivec and IIRC Azura. Both of them directly tell the player that they don't know what happened to the Dwemer. Neither of them, especially Vivec, have any reason to lie (except through convoluted logic to support the IL). So we've got a situation where Vivec in-game contradicts Vivec at the IL. That's a serious flaw, IMO. It's possible that different writers worked on the dialog, and that they had different ideas about what happened, with MK trying to "win" his viewpoint through posts at the IL. It's possible that he changed his mind, or that something else happened. But I personally think that if the IL contradicts in-game content, the in-game content wins.

I have other issues with the IL, but maybe I'll post that in a new topic. I think it's fun reading, but should be taken with a grain of salt.

When I first acquired the time-traveling Elder Scroll in DWEMER RUINS, I felt that a Dwemer DLC that takes you into the past had to be coming. It just seems so obvious.

The idea of altering the timeline and becoming a Dwemer is really way too silly though. I wouldn't mind us altering our own timeline to some degree (perfect chance to allow players to rearrange their perks in a way that makes sense within the canon) but completely retconning our own character into a Dwemer? I don't know about that.

At people saying the Dwemer all died out - Skyrim has said they simply disappeared. I think that new lore overrules old lore.

O_O .....wwwooowww...didn't even know that had been. nice link

I dont really recall Azura ever mentioning the Dwemer except with 'lost Dwemer's folly' at her speech at the end of the main quest.
I could be wrong though, its been a while since I played the game.
Vivec only says he senses no presence of them, in any world.

At least when it comes to Vivec I dont think there is a contradiction. He could be telling the literal truth, but not the whole truth, in the game.
If the Dwemer had become one with Numidium at the time Kagrenac struck the Heart, it would be true Vivec could not sense them, they would be gone.
Also, Vivec is a poet, and a liar.
When in-game he says he did not kill Nerevar, he is lying.
The truth can be learned from a hidden message in the Sermons, that states that the god Vivec did not kill Nerevar, but Vivec the man did.

"The Secret of The Lessons

If we take the numbers from sermon 29, use them to take out words from appropriate sermons and put them together, we will get a secret message:

"He was not born a god. His destiny did not lead him to this crime. He chose this path of his own free will. He stole the godhood and murdered the Hortator. Vivec wrote this."

Also, if we take the first letters of all the paragraphs of sermon 36 with the exception of the last one, we will get another secret message:

"FOUL MURDER." "
(Source: The Imperial Library)

The story of the Dwemer attempting to become the golden skin, golden mean, of Numidium also makes so much sense when you look at what the Heart is, what the Tools were for, how divinity works in TES, even the Thalmor in Skyrim, who are via very different means attempting to achieve the same as the Dwemer were.
Numidium was supposed to become a god.
Tiber Septim used it to forge the Empire, it created the Warp in the West, Dagoth Ur had plans to make it a god in his own image as Akulakhan, apparently that is what the robot is for. To be a giant time and world changing god.

Is it then so far a leap to make that the Dwemer, or Kagrenac at least, intended for his entire race to become that god?

Well, I can't argue that the Dwemer wouldn't like the idea of becoming a collective intelligence god robot, it does fit. It seems a bit complicated considering what Sotha Sil accomplished, i.e. why not directly use the power of the heart to meet their ends for ascension/regression/anti-creation?

I forgot that Vivec lied about that, the bastard! He kills me in cold blood and can't even admit it to my face. Not to mention the wife-stealing. Anyway, I admit this is a flaw in my case, I'm just not sure how much of a flaw. That is, I can see why Vivec might lie about the whole traitorous murder thing, while I don't see anything to gain by being untruthful or misleading about the Dwemer. If Vivec is a good liar, which I believe he is, it's better to be as truthful as possible, and save the lies for what really counts.

But this is a lot of assumptions, so I admit it's not a strong case. I'll see if I can go and redo the conversations with Vivec and Azura--I'm not sure if I have a save (I thought she gave a vague answer, but I could be wrong).

I wouldn't say that we're a fan-fiction site. Our primary focus is to collect and provide access to relevant information about the lore. As such we have the books and storylines from the games, the pocket guides, summaries of the novels, a collection of maps and calenders. Because of their (arguable) relevance we have developer quotes and obscure texts. We also have a few guides compiled from in game information such as the timeline and region guides.
And we have the Forum Scholars Guild which is indeed wholly written by fans. Now I can see that this is what motivates you to call the Imperial Library a fan-fiction site, but it's only a small part of the site.

Now even without getting into the discussion of what canon is and if we should care, I do have to grant you that neither our compiled guides nor the forum scholars guild will be considered canon. That however does not change anything (for better or worse) about the arguments made within.



I agree. We're just another source and it's good to be critical of those.

Anyway, I can't promise it will be acted upon, but constructive criticism is always welcome. My forum inbox here is full so shoot me a pm over at TIL or send a mail to proweler(at)gmail(dot)com.

Skyrim is not the first Elder Scrolls game. Play the other games, we already know what happened. It was all explained throughout Morrowind.

I dont really know, its a good question.

We know that four people made themselves gods, using the Tools and the Heart.
But this also required a constant proximity to the Heart, as certain rituals had to be repeated over the years.
Because Dagoth proved too strong for the Triune they lost Keening and Sunder on one of their pilgrimages to the Heart, and were unable to renew their power.
This is why the Ghostfence was created, and why the Triune had significantly weakened during the events of Morrowind.

Maybe this kind of divinity was not good enough for the Dwemer.
If you see Numidium as a device meant to rectify what elves see as Lorkhan's trick of creation, the prison of Mundus, a device meant to lift their entire race out of that and back to Anu, endless possibility and divinity itself, that is a whole other order of achieving godhood over what the Triune and Dagoth did.

The question still remains though, why did Kagrenac fail, why did Numidium not come to life?

id rather see the humans original homeland and whats going on there. would be interesting to see how they advanced compared to the humans that migrated to skyrim.

OK, now I feel like a dike. Sorry. I was trying to be direct and succinct, but I can see how the fan fiction label could be offensive. I really just meant that not everything on the site is derived from in-game lore, and thus, are non-BGS written articles. I think that's a great feature of the site, and makes it a living site rather than just a repository, but that leads to my 2 issues. Both of which are more about people than the site, anyway.

The first issue is that I've seen too many posts over the years that attempt to end a discussion with a link to IL, usually with a snotty attitude. And these types of posts (and I'm not talking about Merari or anyone in this thread) don't differentiate between canon lore and speculative lore, so it irritates me. Probably a personal issue.

The second issue is also probably a personal thing, but there's a little more objective ground to stand on. BGS has directly stated in the past that in-game literature (and dialog) is suspect. They deliberately espouse the idea that books are written by people, who are biased, ignorant, manipulative, etc. So official canon states that the canon itself is suspect. I personally love that, because it's like real life, and because that leaves some mystery and freedom of interpretation in the game. Certain things are obviously game fact (like the Dwemer are Mer), but many stories or even history is on shaky ground, and I see a lot of attempts to resolve that and smooth things out between lore buffs--especially to insist that a certain view is right. The nature of the community and IL as a primary resource means that a lot of opinions coalesce and become dogma.

But again, this is less about what the IL is, and more about who people are, and I suppose it's inevitable. I might be wrong about how often this happens, too. I just know that I occasionally see it happen on the forums, and that over the years it's been enough to make me irritable about IL links.

Don't worry. None taken.

I can see where you are comming from. I generally try to source my arguments properly so that what I'm saying follows directly from the games rather then dogma, but sometimes that becomes boring. Other then that I'm afraid there is also little I can do.

I would only consider in-game storytelling to be truly canon, in any series of games.

Just as I would with any movie property, television series, or series of books or Comics.

When a transition to a different medium occurs it cannot be considered to be faithfully part of the same continuity unless the originators of the central property have publicly stated, in an official capacity, that it IS part of their canon.

Such as with David Gaider's Dragon Age Books, as an example. Officially approved product, set within the same universe.

Even if a writer from Morrowind submits an explanation in this form to a fan fiction community it's not an official confirmation unless Bethesda state that it is. As they haven't I would have to say that while it is a very logical explanation, expanding on what was revealed in Morrowind, you cannot take that expanded information as Truth.

I have to say though that with the restyling of Dwarven armour, and the Dwemer ruins restyled for Skyrim, It's hardly implausible that there couldn't BE a Dwemer expansion of some kind. They've certainly been giving the ruins some thought, why not the race as a whole...?

anything vivec says ingame could be taken as a lie due to the fact that one Dwemer is stil alive in morrowind just affected by corpus and so lives forever. but the disease prevented him joining the rest when the event happened.
you even meet him in-game and then vivec says there are none.
it's possible the disease also hides his true natue but in theory he is stil alive in morrowind today in skyrim just stil hiding in that corpus sanctuary.
any dlc that involves them that doesn't at least explain where this guy went would be wrong

Look, the point is that the people who invented the whole Dwemer mystery explained what it was after Morrowind.
It really doesnt matter if its in-game or not now does it, when they explicitly say that this is how you should interpret the clues.
Any view of TES lore that only considers in-game sources is by definition too narrow and therefore incomplete and wrong.

To me the "dwemer mystery" is THE biggest mystery in Elder Scrolls series. Mind you of course, I have only played Oblivion and Skyrim; but still I'd very much like to see what went on with the dwarves and where they are now, EVEN if I am to read every single lore on the matter both in-game and in fan-based sites.

IMHO if you are one of the 90% (just speculations) population of Elder Scroll fans, including myself, who have only played the game, got excited over the mysteries and such but did NOT follow them as extensively as some of the people who have posted on this thread have, it'd give you utmost enjoyment to play through a campaign that solves the mystery of the dwemer for you and possibly more.

On the other hand if you are among the minority that followed the lore to find every little bit of information about the intentions and disappearance and such, actually playing through the dwemer plot with your character, seeing the vast technological advances and constructions as they're being made, experimenting if every bit of information you had gathered has been correct or not, possibly finding intentional flaws in the previous lore caused by some in-game characters, etc would still be very enjoyable, wouldn't it?

That being said, IMO the "dwemer mystery", the mystery that has been in Elder Scrolls' last 3 games, more evident in Morrowind and Skyrim perhaps, should NOT be released in a mere expansion. To me, the story of the great dwarven race whose supreme technology is still incomprehensible after 3000 years and whose artifacts are now considered the artifacts of the daedric gods, could beat some daedric prince of destruction and some first born of Akatosh combined.

This is all just my opinion though. I'd be very disappointed if I see this in a simple expansion and not entirely in Elder Scrolls VI.