Bethesda, I read this forum and wanted to scream. One person wants multi player, another could care less spell making was dropped from Skyrim but thinks first person horse riding an essential.
Making a decent game is almost impossible after listening to us.
You can't ever please people by removing choices. Stop doing that.


1. Start adding back the assets and features removed from Oblivion and Morrowind and put them in the next Elder Scrolls game. Let the player decide under what conditions and restrictions they want to play; not the game maker. To this I would add that bringing us as high a graphic representation as possible is great- we know how important looks are- but to sacrafise spell making because the variables were too much for the platform with the graphics in mind? That, my friends, is the wrong direction. If the game makers have to place a type of frame or preset to be chosen at the onset of play, much like hardcoe vs regular in Fallout NV- so be it. Let one player have chameleon and acrobatics, and another insist upon his world wtihout these. Bethesda was the company that could, that gave the player what they wanted. A luxury of gifts. Return them. Let the player determine his world.

2. AI is the holy grail of all of this, don't think for a minute it's not. The NPC's offering feedback to the player regarding his actions in Oblivion, the bargain wheel, the barter options, these all helped the illusion that we were 'there'. Instead of abandoning difficult items, forge ahead. Bethesda, you had courage. Yes, conversations in Cyrodil were often ridiculously trite and contrived, but those same NPC's also reacted to the world around them in a way that they do not as often in Skyrim, and losing this is a darned shame. Some of your efforts were more graceful than others, but all were appreciated.

Keep working on communication between the NPC's and the player. All forms of this communication. You were breaking ground, you were getting somewhere, you were bringing us with you.

3. The character build is almost the most important thing in a single player RPG. That build shrank in Skyrim. You might not know this, because you made the series, Bethesda, and weren't amongst us waiting on the dock for the new game to arrive. We've been waiting on that dock a long time. We were waiting on that dock when Mark Twain was in Europe writing, A Conn. Yankee in King Arthur's Court. We were on that dock waiting for the next Hunter S. Thompson or Tom Clancy book, the next Beatles album, and we were waiting for the next Elder Scrolls game. You may have thought perks streamlined and made more accessable the character build, but they also truncated it. Please stop short selling your audience. It goes right back to choices, the first point.


Where you put us, what color is the sword, or what level you were when the Dog ate Cleveland; none of this is as important as choices, NPC interactions, and the character build. If that mountain looks great but you left some of us behind, it won't matter how well it looks on the console. I won't sweat the small stuff if you'll promise not to lose sight of the big picture.
And it's not how well it looks; it's how well it plays and looks. There's a difference.

The problem with this is that in your first paragraph, you complain about people's opinions that you don't like, but then in the rest of your post you state your own opinion as fact and tell Bethesda to listen to it, and not everyone else.

I happen to disagree with all three points that you made, and it seems like you just assume that everyone is on your side.

If you were familiar with this forum you would know that Morrowind IS the greatest RPG ever made and that "masterpiece" had next to zero AI, therefor your opinion is wrong.

So, what are you saying? That you'd rather have fewer player choices, or that you'd rather that Bethesda didn't try to improve the AI?

Skyrim doesn't have fewer player choices. If anything it has more. We can look at skills as an example. Instead of limiting you to seven skills, like in Oblivion, Bethesda gave us the option to make whatever kind of character we want, using all or only a few of the skills. Perks help this as well by providing branching skill trees that let us further define the character. Want to be a necromancer? There's a perk branch specifically for that within conjuration.

I can't really think of any situations where the AI quality has been lessened. NPCs still react to things around them just as well as they did in Oblivion. I do miss all NPCs having full, fleshed out 24 hour schedules, but they didn't remove it completely, and they improved on other areas instead of that, so you can't really expect them to get everything right.

I suppose the hope is that AI will eventually be able to replace what "the greatest RPG ever made" (said slightly more than half-seriously) did the hard way, with dialog branching and checks to see whether the character had fulfilled certain steps to unlock the new dialog or choices. Until AI reaches that point (which ultimately requires it to do those same checks at some stage), we're stuck with games that leave you with few choices, even fewer MEANINGFUL choices, and extremely limited dialog that it repeats endlessly and annoyingly.

Combine "limited dialog" and "limited choices" with "limited equipment" and "limited spells", and it suddenly adds up to what the OP has been saying. Of course, for many of the players who only want a combat game, that kind of diversity and those meaningful and often hard choices are mostly irrelevant, or just get in the way of finding the next fight. "Success" at the expense of fan loyalty may end up being the worst thing to ever happen to Bethesda, especially if the next small developer comes along with a "labor of love" (as Morrowind obviously was to its creators) and blows their "safe" market-share away.

This is a heavy topic, what makes a good game and what doesn′t? Well, all I can say for certain is that I fully agree with this:

Making a decent game is almost impossible after listening to us.

I believe the industry and the public have changed so much that another Morrowind can never be pulled off again, not even by a small studio. Morrowind as we know it is the aggregate result of a different era in gaming, a different market, a different Bethesda, a different fanbase. It is great but it's not repeatable and I'm not necessarily implying it's someone's fault, just everything changing and not always for the better. The same with food, music and whatnot.

While Morrowind is a great game its not something like a technological singularity. Games just as good can be made and even Morrowind can be improved (hence the existance of a huge number of mods). More than that constantly bashing the devs doesn't help either since at least some of them are really tallented people that care for the series and want to make good games.
Another thing is the vast amount of suggestions that are vastly impractical and hard to build and the amount of complains recieved for less polished features. The level scaling system of Oblivion was a reaction to the complains from Morrowind and it wasn't something good.

Well, yes, we have changed but I think the market is going to have another big change. Consoles and console gamers encouraged the move toward younger aimed games (not necessarily dumbed down, but aimed at teens) which in the late 1990's to 2000 was about right. Most gamers were under 25, male and still in school. now (http://www.onlinegamingassociation.com/statistics/) most gamers are over 25, 40% of them are girls, and most have moved on to careers. These aren't the same people who are impressed by cleavage and blood and gore as in the early 1990s when these same gamers were teens with short attention spans. TV is already starting to make changes -- more detailed, complex plotlines (stuff like 24), more realistic stories, and less of the sappy, stupid 1980's stuff that was made when most of us were kids.

I think a game that goes in depth with complex plots and storylines, deep quests and a learning curve could very well capture that kind of audience. Skyrim does what it does very well, but it's aimed at people different than what the stats say most gamers are. It seems to be for college kids, no thinking required. It's A-Team where I think a "24" style RPG could do better. Nothing wrong with A-Team, I like it, but I'd rather watch 24 and wonder how Jack Bauer is going to save America from a suicide nuke than watch Mr. T help random victim number 356 in a one off episode, while being hunted by Army Dudes. 24 requires an engaged audience as the clues are dropped over a season and there are no BWAAHAHA evil guys. That's what I want my games to be, and I think something deeper and more complex would find a bigger audience then a lot of game makers think.

Oblivion doesn't limit you to using 7 skills.

Daggerfall has 35 skills.
Morrowind has 27 skills.
Oblivion has 21 skills.
Skyrim has 18 skills.

Do you see a trend here?


I don't think that the original poster actually said the AI was worse. He suggested that it could be made better, and it seems you agree.

Gamemastr35- my opinion is that Bethesda should bring back as many choices as possible. As stated by another poster, is your opinion less choice is better?

Spartan258 You think I have to be familiar with THIS forum in order to understand 'morrowind is the greatest RPG made"? I thought the game would tell me that? Stand on it's own? I don't go to forums to tell me whether or not a music group is good or a game is great. I hope you don't either.

Yes, Morrowind has less AI in the NPC's interaction/.feedback to the player, I agree. But it does not follow that means all great RPGs should have no AI. Morrowind was to my mind, and we are dealing with your opinion and mine, not 'facts' able to be great despite the lack of NPC feedback. That does not mean such communication is not desirable. Do you read the Skyrim forum? I hope so. Since day one there have been complaints the NPC's do not seem to understand or react to the players accomplishments. This is not my opinion about these complaints- I am referring to the existence of such complaints. Obviously, other people feel differently than you do about AI and or NPC interaction with the player.

Without feedback to the players actions, well, what are you playing? An action adventure game where you got to pick the clothes you wore.

No, I just don't see how exactly Skyrim has less choice. Yes they took some things away, most of which didn't add much IMO, and they added plenty of new stuff.

Gamemastr35, Most people do not believe Skyrim, 'took some things away, most of which didn't add much, and the added plenty of new stuff".

Even the admirers of Skyrim admit many resources and features are gone. Like you, they don't mind that as they like the new game very much. Perhaps you could list 'plenty of new stuff' that is more than the 'some things' they took away?

Why bother, though? It's a pointless exercise-

You'd play a Skyrim that offered you the same game as now, wouldn't you, and wouldn't mind if it offered other features for those of us who did mind their loss? If you could set your peremeters at the start of the game? I think some selection system at the beginning of play would be a solution that would leave everyone happy. I think this kind of design is coming.

In the meantime, cutting away choices is going to leave many unhappy persons.

It probably would be. It seems like most of the thing that I like (like the new perk-based leveling system, for example) are the things that most others hate.


I would like that, but you have to understand that most of the features that Bethesda didn't bring back from the previous games weren't cut just because they felt like it. They had a deadline to hit, so they went with the features that they thought would work best for the game. I really don't think they have the time or resources to add in every option that people want. That's probably the main reason why we get stuff like modding tools.

Bravo sir. Without simply repeating things you already said I don't have much to add but Three Cheers for Old Grogg!

Put me down as also loving the Perks, however, I don't think perks alone make up for the many things just plain missing. What I wanted was a world that I cared about saving. I don't care about saving Skyrim -- the NPC just seem zombified to me, and I don't think they care much about dragons or Thalmor or Stormcloaks. That's what makes the Forsworn such a great faction in the game -- they;re the ONLY ones who give a skever's rear end about anything. I don't expect every NPC to be telling me how awesome I am, but I would like it if they noticed anything. The emperor gets assasinated, and I still take an oath as an Imperial saying "LOng live the Emperor"? That's just plain lazy, and I don't care how rushed a game is (5 years is rushed now?) there's no excuse for that lind of thing making it into a finished game. And really that's the tip of the problem. NOthing interacts with anything else, it feels more like an empty amusemant park -- I'll ride the Winterhold quests this time -- and never have the rest of the park notice. If I joined one faction in Morrowind, it meant literally closing doors. The Redoran weren't fans of the Imperial Cult and thus if you joined them, you may have trouble if you want to be a Redoran. Yes it's awesome to execute the head of the opposing faction -- but considering that event -- the Windhelm guards don't care, I just don't feel any urgency in finishing those quests. There's no payoff.

For that matter, there's not much required to finish the questlines either. 7-8 quests to be the leader of a faction is not very satisfying. It's a let-down. It's a feeling of "that's it?" -- because by the time I get to know and or like the people in my faction, I'm head of that faction. That's what makes the thieves guild fun -- at least I have to do something before I get to the meat of the quest, rather than "hey new guy? you're awesome. here are our deepest darkest secrets and BTW the guildmaster's spot is open" It's cruddy pacing and it makes what should be an epic storyline feel like a short fanfic of an awesome story.


The features work, but there's not a whole lot to use those features ON. Nothing in the world feels finished. Maybe if one or two factions were short I could see it, but that's not it. FActions look like somebody decided to just put an outline of the quest in place and then forgot to add the rest. Modding should at best be used to improve a great game, not make the game. That's my letdown -- and if modding is to blame, then I wish they'd get rid of modding -- it's not just that features are removed, but that even the features that are there are woefully unfinished. Obvious stuff is unfinished, as in the interaction between two obviously crossed stories that ignore an event that should be obvious. Obvious things like the civil war factions are the exact same quests re-arranged and moved to other areas of the map. When both CW factions have a "raid the cart" mission in which the cart "just so happens" to have been tailed by your faction, and "just so happens" to have been stuck in the mud, I "just so happen" to facepalm. That's not a finished game, that's just lazy.

Also septimine the Pc is only 14% of units sold so mods do nothing for a majority of Beth's customers. The 86% I'm a member of are stuck having paid $60 for Skyrim's beta test.